How can we ensure the prophetic movement in the church remains a force for good – a beacon of unity and hope? Join us on a fascinating journey as we uncover the answers. Hear me, Amanda Hill, Ned Maraman, Francisco Vega, Wayland Henderson, and Elizabeth Tiam-Fook talk about the purpose and future of the prophetic movement. We embark on a deep exploration of the prophetic movement – we question its roots, reason, and future trajectory.

Simultaneously, we bravely face the errors that we must right, and the elements we must protect and cherish. The spirit of community is the lifeblood of the prophetic movement. Our conversation underscores the importance of unity and the necessity of diverse gifts among prophetic leaders.

We lay bare the critical importance of prophetic purity and the non-negotiable need for accuracy and integrity in the prophetic voice. Taking a detour into the realm of leadership, we emphasize the need for leaders to be firmly rooted in a New Testament, ancient Christian environment.

We warn against the disruptive spirit of Leviathan that can sow seeds of division and accusation in the community. We engage in a spirited debate on the role of prophets in contemporary times. How can they effectively foster unity and continuity?

We also warn against the traps of popularity and the need to balance prophetic power with practicality. We shine a light on the dark corners of spiritual abuse by leaders, and the urgent need for fruit to match the gift. Prepare to be enlightened about the prophetic movement in the church, the challenges it faces, and the solutions we propose.

Where to dive in:

(0:00:09) – Prophetic Movement

We discuss the prophetic movement, its purpose, and its future, with a panel of guests from diverse backgrounds.

(0:03:36) – Building Family in the Prophetic

We discuss division, accusation, family, strength, and Tammy’s story of suffering.

(0:19:11) – Prophetic Purity and Leadership Mishandling

Pursuing prophetic purity, holiness, accuracy, integrity, and practicality in the prophetic movement.

(0:28:58) – Maintaining Community Amidst Differences

Fostering unity in the prophetic movement, celebrating roles, assignments and gifts, breaking down schisms, stewarding and training God’s people, and loving one another.

(0:34:35) – Leadership, Prophets, and Shepherd Hearts

Leadership, identity in Christ, acceleration, spiritual abuse, fruit, trust, and wrong narrative discussed in prophetic movement.

(0:46:35) – Discovery and Integrity of Prophetic Gifts

We examine qualifications, integrity, holiness, Leviathan, and the fear of the Lord.

(0:50:38) – Role of Prophets in Modern Times

We discuss God’s protection, unity, continuity, qualifications, and protection from Leviathan.

About the host:

Tammie Southerland is the host of Burning Messengers and the author of Permission To Bur: Breaking the Chains of Compromise from a Holy Generation. She is also a speaker and prophetic minister. She releases the sound authentic of revival and messages from heaven as she travels. Her lifestyle is one of prayer and digging deep into the Word of God, her desire is to releasing the Heart of The Father in these last days. She moves in power ministry and is known for releasing the Matthew 3:11 “baptism of Holy Fire” as she goes. ⁠Buy

Tammie’s Book “Permission to Burn: Breaking the Chains of Compromise from a Holy Generation” here⁠: ⁠⁠


0:00:09 – Speaker 2
God is doing so much. We’ve entered in this new season and I these are some of the most amazing voices are on the forefront of what God’s doing, and so what we want to do is we want to talk tonight. First, you know, why did God create the prophetic movement, what’s the purpose in the church? But also we want to talk about the future of the prophetic movement. What are some maybe errors that we need to come in as mothers and fathers for the next generation and kind of come around and say, hey, this can be corrected and or like, what do we carry on? What do we correct? So we’re going to talk about some deep things, we’re going to talk about relational things tonight, and so let’s start with Amanda Hill. Let’s introduce everyone, everyone introduce yourself, tell where, where you’re from and what you do.

0:00:53 – Speaker 3
I’m Amanda Hill. I live outside Chawston, south Carolina. Everybody want to make fun because I said Chawston instead of Charleston. I travel itinerantly. Amanda Hill dot org. I have two amazing children. We live on a hundred acre family farm and it’s not as glorious and glamorous as it seems. It’s a lot of hard work but we are grateful for the blessing of a farm during the season and I’m happy to be here. Thanks, elizabeth.

0:01:25 – Speaker 4
I’m Ned Merriman. I pastor locally here at Vision Church, fort Walton Beach. I also travel and minister mostly on the prophetic. I have a new book on evangelism coming out here very soon. I have six kids. I have six kids, waylon, I’m tired. I’ve been tired for a long time. I have six amazing kids, a wonderful wife, lacey Merriman. So just happy to be a part of this panel.

0:01:48 – Speaker 5
That’s a hoop squad with a six man in the week. Thanks for being here, elizabeth and everybody. My name is Waylon Henderson. I am a pastor and apostolic leader at the Gathering Kingdom Center in Arlington, texas. We travel nationally, internationally, with crusades, discipling pastors to begin to step into what team ministry looks like, and one of our most things we do is drive the concept and understanding and importance of intercession in the body.

0:02:17 – Speaker 1
Yeah, so I’m Tammy Sutherland. I am in love with Jesus. I have three beautiful girls and I’ve been married for 20 years, my husband Damon. We live in the Atlanta Georgia area. I travel it tenorately. I love to hear what the Lord is saying and speak what he’s saying in the hour that he’s speaking it and really for me that message always goes boils back down to his return and intercession. It’s one of my passions is really teaching people how to hear from him and to really fall in love with who he is and fall in love with this word. So really appreciate being here and, yeah, that’s it.

0:02:59 – Speaker 6
Hey, my name is Frankie Vega. I actually pastor the Ark, which is the Awakening of Reformation Center in Atlanta, Georgia, and we also have an itinerant ministry, Spirit and Truth Ministries International. Been married for 12 years, three beautiful kids my beautiful wife Oshia should be watching Lovey Baby and our heart is really just releasing agents of awakening and releasing a new roar of Reformation and rebuilding the old waste places according to Isaiah 58 and 12. And we’re so honored to be here with you, Elizabeth.

0:03:31 – Speaker 2
Yeah, so I want to. I want to open up. We are going to get deep, but let’s get ankle deep first. Okay, so I had this vision at the beginning of September and in the vision the Lord showed me like this iceberg and I in the iceberg, I saw, like people that I knew, people I didn’t know on this iceberg, and the Lord was giving them a decision to make whether they wanted to move with the new, what he was going to do or stay with old mindsets and stay with what they thought was the new. And all of a sudden I saw the Lord’s hand go in and he split, which I thought was one iceberg is two. And so I saw I actually saw people I knew go on the old because they thought we’ve always done it this way, so this is the way we’ll always do it. But then I saw God going with the people that wanted to move with him and it really concerned me. It actually made my heart sad because I knew some of the people that wanted to stay with old mindsets and I think the church has stepped in such a new place. I feel like I feel like they’re young leaders maybe younger leaders I should say that God has put on the forefront and he’s mantled them to help lead the church right now.

And so, with the in the middle of this, I’m watching divine order that God’s doing, but at the same time I’m seeing this covenant breaking spirit come in and trying to break so many relationships in the church between generations, and I’m like there’s this war on and there’s this intercession that’s happening in the body.

And you know, it’s one thing if God’s sword comes to the to move people to different places. It’s a different thing when a covenant breaking spirit comes into play and the wickedness that goes with a covenant breaking spirit. So, tammy, why don’t I start with you in this? You, you have the mic there and why don’t we start with you? Let’s talk about, like, some of the things maybe you’re seeing, and how can we intercession wise, fight for the relationships, because we are a family in the body, right Moving forward. If we don’t understand the family thing, the enemy is going to keep overcoming us. We’re not going to have the strength of unity. So let’s talk about you know, I know you’re writing a book that’s about to come out on the ground what let’s talk about intercession, relationships and kind of like where you see God’s doing in the body.

0:05:51 – Speaker 1
Absolutely so. One of the things that we’ve been talking about recently is is the table. So, you know, there’s this intersection between the tabernacle and the tables. The tabernacle would be your tabernacle. In with the Lord, you’re sitting with him, you’re in intercession with him, and this covenant breaking spirit that you’re talking about is actually, you know, if you look at the scriptures, it’s the spirit of Leviathan. It’s what it is a spirit of accusation, is a spirit of division, and it’s actually ripping apart the body of Christ from the inside out, because it uses lies and intimidation in order to bring division right and so that the reality that we are in a body in intercession right, we’re called to sit with him in heavenly realms. We’re called to hear what he’s saying and what he’s doing, getting divine strategy from heaven.

Intercession is important, not because we have a gift of intercession, but we’re called to be intercessors who were seated with Christ in heavenly places, getting divine intelligence, and so if we can’t hear what he’s saying, then we can’t do what he’s doing, and so so we’re tabernacling with him, right, we’re invited into that place, and then the secondary place is that place of the table, and so you’re seated with him and we’re seated together and one of the parts of this Reformation is that God’s shifting us from doing platform ministry, where it’s about building a organization, back to the place of family, where it’s building an organism. And so if we’re not living in the place of intercession, we’re not living in the place of hearing what he’s saying, doing what he’s doing and meeting with one another around the table, then obviously the enemy has a has leeway to get in and bring accusation and vision.

0:07:39 – Speaker 2
Yeah, let’s, let’s say this really quick, so it’s really important. I know it’s kind of like I talk about this a lot about the company of profits. God made profit so special and we need each other. And I know, I know there was like some things that got in the body and the generation above us like who has the better word. You know, these things have really caused a spirited division to be attached to it and so you don’t, you don’t want to sit around being accountable to each other. You don’t want to sit around because you feel like there’s competitive spirit between us.

But if we’re really going to do this as profits, let’s pull out into the profits. I know that’s a niche towards the body, but with within the prophetic movement, profits are so special. We actually really need each other and so let’s talk about that. And then maybe I think Amanda would be really good on this Sorry, guys, I’m kind of skipping over to the she’ll be a really good one on answering that. So how important it is for profits to really understand how we need each other this season.

0:08:38 – Speaker 3
I can speak from this very personally. June 18 of this year, which was Father’s Day, my husband of 25 years went home to be with the Lord and it has been one of the most difficult seasons of suffering that I’ve ever endured in my life. I’ve buried a child, and so this is, it’s grueling right, and having a company I want to say I don’t want to say company, I want to say family. Having a family that will actually weep when you weep and Sit with you when you want to sit and talk, when you want to talk or laugh when you want to laugh it.

There’s been a very big line of demarcation in my own life regarding boundaries of those who have invested themselves in within my groaning, my grieving, my morning experience and in the prophetic streams and the prophetic friends that I have. The Lord has been. He’s been Helping me understand who’s my seven. When I say that, I mean like who’s gonna sit with me, who’s gonna be with me? And like Jesus, he had Mary, he had Martha, he had Lazarus, he considered them friends, he had his mother and then he had the three disciples, and so I think for me, the family and the prophetic family that’s gathered around me In this moment of suffering.

It’s deepened our relationship and you know there’s been some that I haven’t heard from, and that’s okay, right, but the family that has been birthed through this time of mourning of mine, it has really deepened the relationship. And so you know Tammy had a situation with her daughter and and we had a group page of some of the prophetic voices and we were contending with her and contending for her. And when you have that family, that that when you go through hard times, it builds trust, it builds relationship, it builds perseverance, it builds a grit inside of you. That I, when, when my husband got the diagnosis, a friend of mine, she texts me and she said your battle is my battle and We’ve not done that very well in the prophetic and I feel like that, our generation, we are getting back to the place where kingdom really is family.

0:11:17 – Speaker 2
So good, yeah, ned, you know how. How would you speak to someone that is maybe say they’re 20 years old in the prophetic and they’re starting Not to put platform before building the family within the prophetic?

0:11:34 – Speaker 4
Yeah, I would say To be humble and Recognize that, especially that that age, you’re going through such rapid change that the issue is not so much can I receive revelation? In reality, I think we’ve been around this enough to know that it’s. It’s really Not unusual for a below, for a spirit-filled believer to receive revelation. It’s how do I steward that, how do I interpret that and how do I release it? And Are there any relational guards on those processes? In my life I find when a lot of. Let me how?

I say this we have a very hyper sovereign View that’s subconscious, of prophetic revelation. We don’t understand how much synergy there is between I, the person God created in his image and likeness, and what the spirit is releasing, and 50 in the especially early and younger. We’re so excited that we receive the revelation. We cannot possibly imagine our interpretation being any less accurate than the revelation we received, and Realizing this will me. Let me say this we are, we live in a hyper individualistic culture which is really in a. It’s a it’s. It’s a bubble that was formed post Reformation, coming into the enlightenment and what we see as them as, as Liberalism shaped in the 18th century, and now that actually pervades all of culture, and so we actually do not understand how to interact as a community or family because we’re so focused on the individual.

Most people, when they receive revelation, the first thing I think is God is elevating me.

Not that God wants to serve a people, and this is a means by which he’s graced me to serve a body so that the whole Grows together in love and grows into the, the, the fullness in the stature of Christ Jesus, according to Ephesians 4, so that, especially in the modern West, the need for discipleship and the need to understand that we as a body whether you take the label of prophet, the title of prophet or not we are a people of revelation and so when we under let me say this I don’t want to diminish Revelation as special, but I do want to introduce humility that says that Just because I’m receiving you, although I esteem that revelation, let’s understand that I’m stewarding it and I don’t necessarily rise with that word, but I it’s, it’s brought together to to serve a company, to serve a body.

So in reality, I’d say this is Get discipled, be a part of a body that believes in accountability and takes growing in the word of God Seriously and understanding the history that the word emerges from and the people that the word emerges from. Because where we have issued today and I’ll kind of wrap up with this is we actually don’t have a vision for continuity. Going back to the Exodus, we see breaks where God sees continuity and we need to reclaim our history.

0:15:20 – Speaker 2
So good, well, wayland, let me ask you this. There too, there are two things we want to kind of play up. That is two questions I have for you because you’re really smart. So so one of them is I someone told me this let’s I mean none of us are afraid to talk about the elections. I know it’s kind of the elephant in a room certain places. I don’t mind talking about it, because how do we fix things unless we talk about it, right? So Someone told me, a prophet told me that only prophets number one question for you only prophets should correct prophets, or let’s allow it you to worse correct, but Maybe that’s the right word, but you, you can take it from there on that one.

The second question is how important is it for the in this season for apostles and prophets to run together? Because I had, I had a prophet Well, there are a few that I’m actually having a apostle and prophets meeting in Dallas this year and usually just do prophets, but we are adding like full apostles to come to it and I’ve had more pushback from the prophets and I have the apostles about coming. The apostles are, yeah, we need to gather with the prophets and the prophets are like hey, some, not all, are saying hey, why, why do you need to invite the apostles to come? So like are those two really good questions for you?

0:16:35 – Speaker 5
Yes, those are really good ones, I’d say for one, the beauty of team ministry that should be demonstrated by apostles and prophets actually lays a plumb line of accountability. And a lot of times, if you’re not willing to allow the word that you receive to be tested because we are human and that word first has to be taken and processed through the humanness of who we are in order for us to be a witness of that, and you have to allow that word to be judged. And when you have apostles and prophets coming together, even every apostle and prophet doesn’t have the same type of personality, because we’re all called to something different. And if our goal is for Christ to be glorified and for the beauty of the witness of the cross of Christ to be seen, then there has to be a level of humility and submission, because it’s not about me being right, it’s about the nature of Christ being represented accurately. And when we have a prophetic person who was willing to do that, it doesn’t matter who brings judgment, because you are willing to allow that word to be judged, because it’s not about whether I’m off. If you’re really prophetic, you don’t care about being off, you care about the Lord being seen rightly. And when you start seeing apostles and prophets come together. That is the foundation of community.

Because if you look at Paul, paul says that the foundation of the church is the apostles and prophets, jesus Christ, being achieved cornerstone.

So if that analogy of a cornerstone is a building that begins to be set at this foundation, so when shaking comes it will not be removed. So apostles and prophets are similar in one thing that they both give witness to Jesus. And I believe it’s connected from the prophets of the Old Testament, the apostles of the Lamb, that the post ascension or ascension gifts of the apostle and the prophet begin to speak from the same foundation. And the same foundation includes that there was team ministry and unity together. So when you get those two gifts that come together, it actually begins to set the stage for what Ephesians 4 is talking about is that we all grow up into the headship of the sun. So humility, I would say, is the first thing, and having a cross shaped perspective where you desire to be self emptying, self giving and self pouring out. Because if you’re going to be a leader, whether it’s a possible prophet, but essentially if you are apostolic and prophetic, you have to embody the message that you receive. So it’s not what you say, it’s where you say it from.

0:19:42 – Speaker 2
So wow, I told you guys he was smart.

Okay so so let’s go to Frankie here. So, frankie, you know you live in the atl right and so I remember we came to do we prophesy there and I remember the Lord started to speak to me when I was coming to Atlanta and it kind of scared me the word, but he started to speak to me about Eli. Okay, let’s talk about purity in the prophetic and like and like how that impacts the body, how it impacts the prophetic movement. When you have too much is the word unholiness, or when we we’re not putting holiness unto the Lord or the fear of the Lord in our lives as the forefront of that, we’re letting our gift. Is that a good question for you? You go where I’m going? Okay, all right, we’ll let you answer that.

0:20:38 – Speaker 6
No, so it’s very. It’s a great passion of mine prophetic purity, because I think people have become office obsessed so much that they’re losing the purity of the function and how prophet is more nature driven than it is just gift driven. So there’s got to be a function in that and I feel like when you see things like Haphneus and Phineas offering strange fire, you see things like like the sons of Eli and you see the stiff neckness of an Eli, you see an entire prophetic paradigm of God saying I need purity within a prophetic movement and a voice so that that can be spiritually a succession that goes down generation, generation. I feel like the Lord is purifying the prophetic when it comes to things like accuracy, when it comes to things like integrity, when it comes to things like an accuracy involves biblical exposition, not just supernatural encounters and experiences. It has to be that we’re never going to prophesy out of a polluted well or polluted paradigm that we’re never going to manufacture manifestation is going to be something genuinely that comes from a place of intimacy and saying from a pure heart, because I think too many times a generation we’re in that sight and sound generation in this IG generation of just cultivating likes and followership versus following Jesus. And there’s a lot of gimmicks.

Personally, presently, in many of, at least I’ll say, some of the younger generation that’s coming up, we have to be careful with gimmicks. We have to be careful with just trying to pose as powerful but losing the purity of that office and I think the problem with that becomes that we can fall into it. Jesus talks about Mark chapter and the lust of other things and when you look in the scriptures it’s the the lust of other things. On the four types of ground can the enemy can come and destroy and take that word away. I think one of those lusts that we have to be careful with is prophetic power at times, because the nature of our character fuels the charismatic, fuels, our ability to move into gifts or to project a sense of powerfulness. But that’s something that I’ve been kind of teaching in our local church a little bit, because I’m a pastoral prophet, I’m having to function in both worlds. But it’s help temper my prophetic with practicality, like how can we love the prophetic but present in a way that builds a local church where we’re not just blessing prophets, like prophet Kevin has poured that into me. Prophet Kevin Leo is one of my mentors. He said, frankie, don’t be a blessing prophet, be a building prophet. How do you have your tethering, your gifts to the governmental great? A governmental grace is to establish foundations. The greatest foundation is the local church, local churches, local churches. That has to be so.

There’s almost like this way of the prophet in mind said that you see Jude prophesies about, they’ve gone by the way of Balaam and then by the way of cane, and can’s issue was that he didn’t. He didn’t in and he didn’t embrace accountability as part of being essential. God obviously communicated a purity and the sacrifice of in a presentation and he intentionally went around that. And then you see, the Holy Spirit prophesied through Jude that in the last days many will go by the way of Cain and really the biggest issue that that comes into when we’re not wanting to operate from a prophetic place of purity, is that we can become self-induced orphans. So now it’s no longer a wandering from a place of well, my anointing is so misunderstood and cannot be embraced and there’s no expansion for me in the local church. I think some of that masks itself from a place of rebellion and an inability to be planted and say all my grace, gifts and everything that I have is to not even just build up myself as a prophet or just other prophets and apostles, but to help build a governmental grace for sound and solid pastoring, sound and solid teaching. And that means I embrace accuracy, a heart for the loss and going out and having communal ministry.

That’s why Matthew 7,7, the Lord said that many will say in the last days we didn’t with you. All these great works, you know, we prophesied in your name, prophets prophesied. So that could be an innuendo toward we were prophets and we were accurate. And then he said we did many wonderful works. And the Bible says Jesus said and now professing to them be gone. For me I didn’t have, yadda, I didn’t have intimacy with you. So the key is with prophetic purity. Is our unction coming from a place of intimacy or is it coming from a place of just industry? We’re just moving by For follow ships and book sales and and platforms and multi-level market ministry mindsets. We’re not prophesying and loving the local church from a place of purity and intimacy. It’s just manufacturing things and I think that’s huge.

I want our generation, who generally have prophetic graces, to say hey, my gift grace, I don’t want to be a Matthew 7 7 prophet where the Lord says you did a lot of wonderful works but you were lawless. You practice anemia, you didn’t have any, you didn’t tether government, that governmental grace, you were not accountable, you were not integrity, you didn’t press. And also into accuracy, not just into unction, and I feel like that’s a major deal here and I hear that often when I go around and the Lord started telling me, said son, a lot of younger prophets need that fathering, they need the apostles, they also need pastors, teachers, they need, they need a convergence of the full, of the, of the true, faithful ministry. So it tempers and balances us, because many of us are claiming that we’re being rejected or being mishandled but we refuse to honor other grace gifts and we have an orphan spirit and that needs to be healed and delivered. I think in the, in the Rising of the younger prophetic movement today.

0:26:16 – Speaker 2
Yeah, so we’ll kind of pass this on or maybe you guys can answer whoever fails to answer that. But all on talking, talking about this. But you know there’s a difference between what there’s lines of honor, like. We all believe in honor, everybody here believes in honor and we all honor the gifts and people around us. But we’re watching some well, you brought it up mishandling and and leadership.

One of the things I realized when I came into the prophetic movement is I was like you know, some of these prophets are some of the best prophets in the planet. Like my gosh, I’m not even one percent. You know like there’s some of the most amazing, but I realized some of them don’t have leadership gifts and what you do is you, when you can stand up and prophesy to a hundred people, but you come down a mistreat your staff, like there’s some things that really go off as alarms inside of me and I just I’m wondering with the if God is asking us to help keep building what he’s building in the kingdom. One of his things is he’s always says oh, these are my kids, don’t touch them, okay, so, so he’s always protective over the body. So what are some things? Maybe I can Start with you, frankie, and then just kind of pass it down, because this is a heavy topic right now, going on with the Mishandling of people under our care, and we just can’t throw it off with authoritarian type leadership, which is not kingdom leadership at all, where we just say you just do what I tell you do, or I’m gonna call you rebellious, you know? Or say what I say. There should be a giving and taking of a Relation, but I do understand honor on both sides need to be happening, because true covenant, true relationship, is two-sided right.

So I have been seen some mishandling of people where it’s not just a bad day but it’s bad leadership and so. So how do we move forward? Because there’s I’m not thinking of anyone in particular, I’m just talking about this is like something where the prophetic movement is going so fast. We’re building, everything’s being built and we have amazing people that pioneered and built it. But there’s some things that I’m watching come in About leadership that I think like if we’re gonna build the prophetic movement, one of the things that we’re doing it’s not just building profits but we’re actually adding in leadership into it. How do you? How do you do that? Because I don’t think in people’s heart. They on purpose maybe some to hurt people, but when you have bad leadership skills you end up hurting people. So let’s start with you, Frankie, and just kind of let’s do two minutes each and just go down and talk about you know, how do we, how do we fix some of this stuff going on with the mishandling of people?

0:28:58 – Speaker 6
One thing, I kind of scripture came to mind, and I believe this is the text of Romans, chapter 2 Is that, therefore, we have no excuse or defense or justification. Oh man, whoever you are, who judges and condemns another for imposing his judge and passing sentence on another, you condemn yourself because you, who judge, are habitually practicing the very same things that you censure and you denounce. And so it goes on even to say who are we to judge another man’s household servant? And so it literally says I believe that’s in Romans, and correct me guys, give me that text if you but he says it is before his Lord that he stands. So we have a communal mindset and I think some of that, we, we, there’s a little bit of a posturing at times and I feel like Because of that, it could, maybe it could come from a place of conceit or arrogance, with one, a acknowledgement of our giftings and our graces. But there’s there’s a community mindset that comes together. But there’s also this other side that says people have individual lanes of their calling and emphasis and it’s almost like because of that, sometimes people we want to censure and say well, that’s not the kind of prophet you need to be or the apostle you need to be. And then you, you kind of see a convergence.

When you look at this New Testament opening in the Gospels with John and Jesus, they seem like you’re contrasting and you even see the Seemed like you’re contrasting and you even had individuals trying to pit them against each other. You know, john did this and John did that. And then Jesus, instead of saying, of condemning John, he said what did you go to see? You know, just somebody in a beautiful palace and smooth. He said that’s for princess. He said you’re looking at a man who was a prophet, more than a prophet. So you, you got to have these contemporary mindset where John understood his role is to make the crooked straight and level out the prideful mountains and Jesus was there to receive people with open arms For salvation.

And I feel like there’s John and Jesus style ministries in the apostolic and prophetic community when we’re not supposed to be trying to censure and which actually creates this Schism in our ability to fellowship and community. But we need to say you’re different, god is having you speak something different, but you’re part of our community and we’re together and we’re one and I love that. You never see John condemning Jesus’s ministry, as different as they were in Jesus. Of course he’s God in human form, but he’s our example, not our exception. We don’t see him condemning John. He actually is publicly appraising and affirming John, though he’s different in his assignment, and I think some of that causes, uh, some schism in our inability to really maintain that community where we don’t celebrate the difference, we see differences, dysfunction and that creates a separation and a constant pushing away.

0:31:34 – Speaker 2
So how would you say that? I know we have to pass on the the, but, like, how would you say that, though, in a leadership point of view, with people, they’re stewarding under them? Because I think, like a parent, a parent Handles every child differently and stewards the call of God on their life. So, where a prophet may be, where I could be more of a John the Baptist, I, you have to steward me, different than someone that’s called to be, maybe, a governmental prophet. You know, like we’re gonna have different. How I’m built is different, how I, how I process is different, and so how do we make sure that, at the end of the day, love is our highest aim? Okay, at the end of the day. So why is there a mishandling of things? Um, I don’t know if you can say that in one minute or you need to pass, okay, all right.

0:32:25 – Speaker 6
I feel like there’s a difference between creating a clone and creating a disciple. So sometimes I feel like, because I have three kids and it’s very tempting to say, hey, I don’t want you to have any of my weaknesses, I want you to have all my strengths. But then sometimes we also Bicariously try to live through our kids. And if we didn’t go to the league, we want our kids Be a doctor and lawyer and I feel it. Part of that is our ability to Really Proverbs 22. It prophetically in verse 6 train up a child in the way that should go and win their old and want to part. And it literally means to To understand how God is molding. And I think that happens with prophets and ministry and itinerant gifts. They may not preach like you and prophesiality as long as they have the foundation of integrity and honor and they’re not breaking that pattern Biblically. We have to learn how to celebrate the difference of that.

0:33:14 – Speaker 7
Hey Burning Messenger. We want to interrupt today’s episode to remind you of Tammy’s book Permission to Burn. The book is her testimony on paper. She was on fire and never expected her life to demonstrate anything other than the zeal of God’s heart for his people. Tammy was going to change the world and see millions come to know her Jesus with the same passion and desire. Until the lies and obstacles begin.

Permission to Burn will take you on a journey of truth and release the weight of God’s glory and recommission the believer in Christ to live out his or her identity as a holy messenger. Awaken the courage to reclaim the undeniable truth amid a dangerously confused generation. Impart keys to living the holy, consecrated yet exhilarating, spirit-filled life. Call forth a scriptural plumb line of reformation to the modern church and leadership structure. Combine together hearts of seasoned leaders and young believers for a sustainable last day’s Holy Spirit outpouring. Read Permission to Burn. Get back on the mountain God gave you and take your place in setting this world on fire for the love of Jesus. In your generation you can find Permission to Burn, breaking the chains of compromise from a holy generation, on Amazon.

0:34:35 – Speaker 1
I want to jump into your point of being a prophet or apostle and a leader. And how do we steward the hearts of people well, if I’m understanding the question right, when it may not necessarily be our natural gift, bend In that. What I’m thinking is that even it goes back to the community side of things and the team ministry, team leadership. But as one that I’m probably more of a John the Baptist type, that’s probably more of my bend, that doesn’t give me an excuse to not seek after a pastorial shepherding heart.

I think in some of what we have seen an issue with with fivefold ministry, if we found more identity and title and desire to honor for title, then we have found identity in Christ.

And so I think part of the reason we’ve mishandled or not I say that in general some have mishandled those who have been under them or not been good leaders, is because in Wayland’s words, we’ve not found ourselves in a cross shaped life, we’ve not crucified the flesh, we’ve actually catered to it.

And I could keep going like we could go into the orphan spirit and how we have perpetuated that orphan heart in the next generation because we’ve not found ourselves healed. And even in the fivefold understanding, jesus is the representation of the all five. He’s the fullness of the fivefold, and so if I’m going to identify myself with Christ, then I’m going to need to understand that my weakness, where I’m weak, he’s made strong, and so that means that I may have to care for someone who I have nothing in common with with tenderness, and so I think that’s just it’s important when we talk about being a fivefold leader, but also being a leader as we continue to draw on Christ, yeah, and we’re really under shepherds right, and so we’re actually supposed to reflect what God has taught us, the type of leadership he has, and we do that into the people below us.

0:36:47 – Speaker 2
Anything outside of that is not kingdom, right. So the mishandling or the abuse, well, let’s say that you know, we were talking today at lunch and we said, you know, sometimes when we, when we talk to the next generation above us or we talk to them about things being mishandled, it’s okay like there’s a line in the sand if we talk about sexual sin or sexual abuse, but when we start talking about verbal abuse or spiritual abuse, somehow they don’t have a, they don’t have any, they don’t know, even know you watch them, start to like get, you know, shaky in the chair because it’s okay to talk about sexual abuse, but it’s not talk about when a leader verbally abuses your. You have spiritual abuse. These are some things that we have to kind of clean up, guys, and so why do we wait? Why do you get talk into that? Maybe some of that you guys can answer it, however you’d like.

0:37:38 – Speaker 5
Sure, that’s a power packed question here, but I would say for one, the challenge we have is the good thing, there’s an acceleration of what God’s doing in profits. But the challenge is that acceleration can be devoid of leadership around them. That shows not just your gift or your ability to prophesy but also what it’s like to lead. And when you are only around profits and not shepherded by pastors, then you don’t understand what it means to have a heart for people. And your fruit has to speak just as much as your gift. And I’ve seen a lot of profits that are wounded and healed and try to mask it with their gift because of spiritual abuse that they perpetuate through those they lead. So there has to be a safe place where you can begin to bear your wounds, so your wounds can be healed by the wounds of Christ, so that those wounds become wounds to begin to birth greater things. And there has to be that unity of all five-fold functions. And I think a challenge for many prophets, at least in my experience, is because we’ve moved in such a restoration of the apostle and their prophet that we’ve kind of kicked the pastors to the side. And because we’ve kicked the pastors to the side we lose that heart posture for the sheep.

And one of my mentors, lynne Sweet, would always, you know, were none of us our leaders. And he’s like what do you mean? None of us are leaders, we’re all followers, which means you lead, how you follow, and if you bear the image of Christ laying down your life so that life can move in others I mean Paul says it really the, the, the apostolic function that should move in all of us is death works in us, so life can work in you. And one of the challenges out and with this is if we kind of use this cop out that says I know you by the spirit, right, right, right, right, you feel me, you feel, instead of actually sitting down with somebody and getting to know them.

So if I hear somebody that’s full of fire and prophetic gifting, but I know there’s wounds in them, but I’m not willing to sit at the table and hear them and begin to celebrate the gift that they are and give them space to be transparent, then they’ll always be a leader that will perpetuate. This is what leading looks like, and if you don’t begin to embody what another way is, a more excellent way, through love, then how will they ever know any different. So I think it’s you know. With those leaders that begin to move like that, I think there’s more to their story than we know. But if you’re not willing to sit down and give them space or give them a year, sometimes I found that that’s why they are the way they are, because no one ever gave them a space to sit at the table and get to know them.

0:41:10 – Speaker 4
Well, no, I have things to say, I just these are my views. I think, in large part, most of the prophetic movement has the entire narrative wrong. I think most people let me say this subconsciously in an action maybe you wouldn’t say this publicly, but functionally they view prophetic ministry as manifestational, not incarnational.

0:41:37 – Speaker 2
All right, Can you, can you share a little?

0:41:40 – Speaker 4
bit about that.

0:41:41 – Speaker 2
Come on.

0:41:43 – Speaker 4
They view it as manifestational, not incarnational. So therefore, most people are elevated not based on their Christ likeness, which requires relationship, but on the level to which they manifest a spiritual gift. Therefore, you do have some who manifest at a high level, but Christ is not yet formed in them. And the problem is is that most of modern day prophetic ministry in the West is based on entertainment, not edification of a body, because we are a decadent society and therefore a lot of our prophecies are inconsequential. We’re not dealing with famines, we’re not dealing with wars, we’re not dealing with serious issues most of the time. And so because people cannot get let me say this, because, because our society has become so individualistic and atomized, people are not positioned to receive love. We do not know how to be loved, we do not know how to have community. And so, therefore, when someone jumps in the prophetic stream, well, this person’s gift and I’m not saying God’s not speaking through, god’s not speaking truth, but they give me edification and hope and they see a destiny and purpose when I’m drowning in my life. And so I I think that if we are go back and take a look at scripture, in the narrative of scripture, it’s incarnational. So let me say this the incarnation of Christ is not a response to the fall of Adam. The logos would have all was was always going to incarnate. This is back to basic principles. So so, psalm 8, david, reveals something to us that we need to pay attention. He says who is man that you’re mindful of us? Who is man that you’re mindful of him? That you made him a little lower than the angels and you crowned him with glory. So Adam and Eve possessed a glory Okay, that covered their neck in this text was always supposed to be a part of who they were when they send that glory list. And they are indeed created a little lower than the angels. But how is it that we are to judge the angels, as Paul says, if we’re lower them? Impossible. The way that we were to judge the angels, even though we created lower the angels, is because the word Was going to manifest and become in the union with humanity and thereby elevate the entirety of humanity above the angelic creation.

And so the problem is is, let me say this when I read the Old Testament Through the lens that the, that it’s the spirit of Christ Speaking through them, I see the word Pre-incarnate itching to, to insert himself in his creation. I’m seeing the logos itching to take on place. I think that’s what David. I think David wrestled with that reality. He had so many messianic Psalms he could feel especially tabernacle David mentioned for the Prince of the earth that he could feel the desire For for Christ to once again walk in the cool of the day, as he did them, because that’s Jesus. Jesus says, isaiah saw him, and, and so when we have an entertainment driven model, that’s that there’s basically it’s a spiritual arms race and we don’t understand the narrative of what the spirit of Christ is attempting to accomplish, we actually work against the spirit of Christ, and I dare not say what that actually is theologically Because it’s scared. Okay, thank you, that’s why you’re here.

0:45:52 – Speaker 2
So Ned and Ned, let me ask you this you know, we opened our meeting last year and like there were all these different streams, leaders from different streams, and this is my opening thing Can we stop clapping at the next generation of profits for being able to prophesy to a hundred people? Can we start clapping when they have integrity, when they like let’s, because let’s change our clap, because here’s what’s happening. They’re responding to clap because already fatherless and they’re being saved and coming in the church and unless they Understand that, oh you clap for my integrity. I want to be more integrist, and so what they?

0:46:27 – Speaker 4
do is get a crowd to clap for your integrity, because not a crowd doesn’t know you’re integrity.

0:46:31 – Speaker 2
Yeah, but this is where fathers and mothers need to come in the church. So tell me where you think that went wrong, because the purity of the and and the call of the prophetic movement God put in the earth. Where did it go wrong?

0:46:43 – Speaker 4
I have an answer. Give me this a second, because I’m wrestling a question you already said before. But where did it go wrong? It it? I think it’s. It’s a hermit, I think it’s partly a hermeneutical issue and I think that it’s also a breaking of continuity. So here’s, let me. Let me say this Respectfully the prophetic wasn’t restored at a later date.

The prophetic has been going on for a long time and that’s that’s. That’s actually. It’s never been broken. So but there are. There are Christians that in a Premodern age we didn’t have communication with that. We’re still manifesting the gifts on levels actually I don’t know anyone who scratches into right now, I’m talking post ascension All the way through the Pentecostal the, you know, through through Western Pentecostal outpourings, whether it’s Barney Creek in North Carolina or a Zoo’s a street, and so we’re still in an age of discovery in the prophetic. We we are just now getting to where we have are starting to get into the interpretations Of what certain things actually mean functionally, because we said when let me say this, okay, so People are gonna probably want to filet me for this so Certain aspects of the Reformation went too far, and certainly aspects of the Roman Catholic Church went too far. And then and and by like, after 1054, the Eastern Church really wasn’t in the discussion, and there’s a lot of gold there, to be honest with you, a lot of gold there, and and so we’re actually so it feels like discovery. But what’s actually happening is God is catching us up and so like for me. I just be honest.

I take Alan Hirsch’s approach to Ephesians, chapter 4. Actually don’t think that there’s Apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers and evangelists and everybody else. I actually think that the reality is is that letter was given to be read in front of everybody. There wasn’t a. This is a session for leaders and this is a session for everyone else. Everybody’s there.

So here’s the issue is. Here’s the issues is that if you examine scripture, just because you may function in a gift doesn’t mean you’re qualified to lead in the body, because the qualifications that Paul lays out is not that you have had hands laid on you and commissioned, are recognized as a five-fold minister. Is that your marriage is right. If you’re married, that you have it, you have it. So, so, so, so. So I would say this in a, in a New Testament, ancient Christian Environment, you would never clap for a prophet to have integrity. They would never even be allowed to have that place for people to think about it If they weren’t really proven in integrity.

So what we’re doing is we are we are mistakenly elevating Spiritual gifts into offices of leadership. I’ll be honest, even some music there’s, there’s, here’s, here’s. So Let me wrap this. Real stupid about that. Okay, sorry, I gotta be funny, I’m tired, I’m sorry, it’s funny to me. My wife not, might be laughing, and Elizabeth is, and Frankie, so I feel good about myself. So, so, so, here’s, so, here’s here.

Let me say something there is a reality that there is a people on planet Earth that they so embody profits that we have to recognize, that we have to recognize that they need to spend so much time with God, to the point that you must protect the prophet from the people and the people from the prophet.

Sometimes and you gotta know when Now we don’t like that idea, because we don’t live in an age of continuity, we take a break from Old Testament, new Testament that I don’t think God breaks, and so we misunderstand, we misunderstand the John the Baptist. John the Baptist had a certain job that he executed well, because we actually the function of profit. We don’t want to get into all that right now because we’re not in a place of emotional health where we can handle that. But God wants to bring us there. We can understand certain things and we’re a Demptive way and I don’t want to get into that right now because it take too long to explain that in a healthy way. But but let me say this there are so. So what we do in America, when you start getting you know, a following, well, you start a ministry.


Join us for an enriching discussion with Waylon Henderson, an exceptional intercessor and passionate lover of Jesus. Together, we explore the profound importance of intercession and prayer in our lives. Our conversation unravels the power of the cross and how embracing a cross-shaped life can transform our perspectives. We also highlight the urgency of shifting the prayer room from the backroom to the front lines of our generation’s challenges.

This episode brings a unique perspective on the harmonious coexistence of men and women as carriers of God’s image. Our discussion takes a fresh look at the biblical narrative of Adam and Eve, reflecting on how their relationship reflects unity and oneness. Further, we extend this idea to understand the roles of married couples in fulfilling the image of Christ, regardless of their different callings. We also engage in an enlightening discussion about redefining the traditional concept of ministry and marriage in the church.

We touch on crucial issues surrounding women in ministry, emphasizing the need for balanced representation in service. We ponder the importance of a relational ministry and discuss the feminine dimension of God. Our conversation then steers towards the necessity of reconciliation and unity among men and women for better understanding and cooperation. Finally, we share insights on the empowering narrative of Deborah and Barack, emphasizing the importance of empowering and encouraging the women in our lives. So, lend your ears to this episode for an enlightening exploration of these thought-provoking topics.

Where to dive in: 

(0:00:00) – Exploring Men and Women Running Together (7 Minutes)

We {converse} about men and women running together and the significance of comprehending the strength of the cross and intercession. We examine what it appears like to be a messenger in this hour and {investigate} the basis of prayer and intercession that is essential for everything else to flow. We talk about how the Lord is raising up intercessors and messengers and how the prayer room needs to go from the backroom to the frontroom to meet the Lord. We urge the body of Christ to embody intercession and move into a lifestyle of prayer and encounter.

(0:07:00) – Gender and God’s Image (7 Minutes)

We explore how the concept of male and female living harmoniously together to bear God’s image in the earth can inform our understanding of marriage and the body of Christ. We look at the narrative of Adam and Eve in Genesis and consider how the original Hebrew language reveals more about this relationship. We discuss the idea that marriage is a physical, emotional and spiritual connection, but not the only way to understand unity and oneness. Finally, we consider how the roles of married couples, despite different callings, can still come together to fulfill the image of Christ.

(0:13:47) – Redefining Ministry and Marriage in Church (5 Minutes)

We consider what ministry looks like in its fullest sense. We discuss how, beyond the traditional idea of a husband and wife with a microphone, ministry is about belonging and inclusion for all, regardless of how they move. We explore how the idea of a family moving together in a community can break down barriers, and how the concept of men and women living together in harmony to bear God’s image in the earth can inform our understanding of marriage and ministry.

(0:19:09) – Exploring Hindrances and Empowerment in Relationships (5 Minutes)

The importance of spiritual fathers and the need to nurture and foster the strength and passion of the women in our lives is paramount. Culture often stifles the strong will of women, and men of God should honor it instead of obstructing it. We can come together to confront our inner Judas and Peter and experience the transformation that follows. As men, we can address the obstacles we have faced in the past and how to handle the hurtful accusations of manipulation when our intentions are honest.

(0:23:53) – Role of Women in Scripture Exploration (8 Minutes)

We investigate how the table of remembrance in communion can be a place to come into union with how God sees women. To comprehend the scriptures, we must read them from Christ’s viewpoint. We learn from Jesus’ example that he placed women at the forefront, not on the sidelines. We analyze how the early church acknowledged Mary Magdalene as an apostle and the consequences of that. Lastly, we examine how the restoration of the table and the tabernacle is essential to understanding our identity as holy messengers.

(0:32:09) – Issues Surrounding Women in Ministry (17 Minutes)

We {discuss} what it looks like for the body of Christ to incarnate Christ in the culture and why it is important to have a balanced representation of both male and female in ministry. We reflect on the need for relational and not transactional ministry, as well as the importance of having the right people around to help cultivate and encourage the fire burning in each person. We also consider the importance of seeing the vessel God has made and recognizing the assignment He has for them. We explore the feminine dimension of God and grapple with why it can be hard for men to grasp. Lastly, we reflect on the importance of being redeemed and how it can lead to a fire that is ignited and how it can be hindered by religion.

(0:49:39) – The Role of Reconciliation and Unity (11 Minutes)

We examine the need for men and women to come together and sit at the same table to truly understand one another, breaking down the walls of division and past hurt. We discuss how the culture needs to shift for us to come together and how the Charismatic movement has an excuse for not taking the time to understand each other. We also consider the idea of a bridal reconciliation and how we can come together in consecration and holiness. Finally, we look at how the younger generation is longing to see something new and how the Lord is providing signposts to pick up on.

(1:00:12) – Men and Women Running Together (8 Minutes)

We uncover the truth about Deborah and Barack, and how God elevated Deborah’s voice and ability to hear from him. We also discuss the importance of male and female voices running together, and the need for men to come alongside the women in our lives, to empower and encourage them. We recognize the power of spiritual fathers and how they nurture and foster the strength and passion of the women in their lives, and how the table of remembrance in communion can be a place to come into union with how God sees women. We explore how the body of Christ can incarnate Christ in the culture, and why it is important to have a balanced representation of men and women in ministry.


0:00:00 – Wayland Henderson
Because what this makes me think of is Colossians 2, when Paul begins to start to talk about that principalities and powers were disarmed by the cross. So let’s start there, when a church fully starts to not be afraid that I’m going to embrace the cross-shaped life in this area. But I don’t know about that area because I’m afraid of what that would look like. You know, it’s like every fiery woman is not a Jezebel.

0:00:45 – Tammie Southerland
Hi, welcome back to the Burning Messengers. My name is Tammy Sutherland and I want to ask you a question Do you really believe that men and women can run together? Do you believe that there’s hindrances to that, and what does that look like? We’ve been talking about this a good bit, but we believe that God is actually calling us into an hour where we’re able to bring about the fullness, the beauty of who he is as we begin to run together in really the end of the age. We’re at a time where the world is in crisis and we need to see the power of God move and we need to, like, probably get past some of our religious barriers so that we can see what he’s doing in this hour. He’s raising up intercessors, he’s raising up messengers, and today I have one of my good friends with me. You’ve met him before.

Waylon Henderson is coming on and we’re going to have a really real conversation about this. Waylon, welcome back to the Burning Messengers podcast and I’m so thankful that you’re here. We’ve had so many awesome conversations and this is one that’s kind of personal to us and dear to our hearts. So you guys don’t know Waylon. He is an amazing intercessor, he’s a lover of Jesus. He’s a father, he’s a husband, he really is used powerfully in the nations around the world, but his heart really is to just encounter the Lord, to know the Lord and to really teach what he’s saying and what he’s doing. So, waylon, if you want to tell anything else, you can talk a little bit about what you’ve been doing with intercession with the school. Just to jump into this.

0:02:15 – Wayland Henderson
Sure, it’s great to be on here with you again, tammy. Blessings to everyone who is either watching live or will watch recording later. I mean, just as some of the things we’re doing now really a lot of it is thrusted through intercession. I mean, in fact, everything that I do and everything that we’re walking in now has always come from the birth canal, if you will, of intercession, even before I even understood what all that meant. Right, but we’re the Lord is really positioning us now to with a mandate, really to give an understanding to the body of Christ that, yes, I don’t know of anybody else, but growing up it was always the mothers of the church that were the strong intercessors in the back room. Yes, they carry powerful oil and anointing to break through in prayer and many things that many of our generation, much of our generation, walks in now was because of that.

But, at the same time, one of the things that’s on our hearts and the mandate for us, the Gathering Kingdom Center, is to take the prayer room from the back room to the front room, that it comes from the back of the room and on the front room and the front lines of the fault lines of the shaking in our generation and that there’s not really a mantle that you can see anywhere in scripture of intercession, because the whole body of Christ, the bride, is called to embody that. So anything that we do as far as discipleship, apostolic and prophetic foundations, all flow out of that foundational thread and understanding of intercession. So that’s some of the things. Whether it’s around the local region in Arlington, texas and DFW, whether it’s around the nation, whether it’s another nation of the world, god is raising up a heart for people to pray. So sight and times.

0:04:16 – Tammie Southerland
Right, and it all goes back to that. Everything that we talk about, everything that we do, it goes back to that. It starts with that. It’s the cross and the intercession and obviously the cross and intercession.

And we might sound like a broken record when we talk about this, but we’re really not, because if we don’t understand that these are the foundation stones and everything else that we’re saying, everything else that we’re doing, it’s really built on sinking sand, for a lack of a better word. And so even what we’re talking about today can men and women run together? If we don’t have a foundation, an understanding of the cross, an understanding of intercession, then the answer is no, we can’t. Men and women can’t run together, we can’t run at all. Everything falls apart.

And that’s why I really love you and I love what you do, because that’s your heart. Your heart is to teach a generation to pray. Your heart is to teach a generation to look at the cross and what else is there. And so when we talk about that, we can get into so many different things. We can get into thoughtful ministry, we can get into missions, we can get into even what it looks like to be a messenger in this hour. But if you’re not living a lifestyle of intercession, if you’re not living a lifestyle of prayer, you don’t understand the power of the cross. Then you need to go back to square one. That’s the milk, right?

That’s the milk and the meat right All at the same time.

0:05:33 – Wayland Henderson
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

0:05:35 – Tammie Southerland
And let’s say, just diving into the subject, what are your thoughts on that? I’ve been talking about that quite a bit and honestly, it came up to me you and I were at a conference together, I don’t know, a few weeks ago and it started kind of burning in my heart because something interesting happened is like you went into an encounter and I went into an encounter at the same time, and it’s almost like your encounter, my encounter. This has happened before, but it’s almost like you saw a different facet of what I saw, but it was a very similar encounter and I began to ask the Lord the question like what is this? What is God doing right now, prophetically? But also what’s God doing with Waylon and Tammy?

You know, we seem to be in the same vein whenever it comes to some of the revelation that God’s given us, and the Lord actually began to speak to me. It’s actually like looking at two different facets of a stone, of a gemstone. You know where I’m able to capture a certain facet and you’re able to capture a certain facet, even though we may be in the same encounter, in the same revelation, and when we begin to bring those things together, it paints a picture of the character and the nature of God that we otherwise wouldn’t be able to see.

You know, I believe it reaches even further than that, into some power ministry and some building as well. But just talk to me for a second on your end of that, what are you thinking, what are you hearing, and why is this a subject that we need to talk about?

0:06:58 – Wayland Henderson
So good, so good. You know I was thinking about, and we had some conversation around this as well and when you start having these type of encounters, especially in particular between you and I, male and female, and the Lord starting to weave certain dimensions and facets of what he’s doing through both of it at the same time, it reminds me of Genesis, right and when God desired to make man in his own image and in a culture that is male dominated, your immediate response is God desired to make man. But a better translation is God made human.

0:07:56 – Tammie Southerland
Yeah, yeah.

0:07:58 – Wayland Henderson
Which includes male and female.

0:08:01 – Tammie Southerland

0:08:02 – Wayland Henderson
So his image bears is is incomplete, actually complete actually, if it’s only male, because his image, to bear his image as humanity in the earth, it needs both male and female. And when I, when I start to think about you, know different dimensions and facets that the Lord speaks through For a wife and I. Example, for example, a lot of times you look at Genesis, because it was, you have this narrative of Genesis one where it’s male and female, the the bearing God’s image, and then when you get into chapter two, it’s still male and female, but then it could easily just slip into a context of Husband and wife marriage ministry, which I think is huge, and it actually begins to help set a framework of holiness and transparency, has Men and women begin to move together in which we can get into, maybe a little later. But for me there are different aspects of Male and female that bear the image of God that if you only have one aspect of it, there’s another facet that you don’t see. And when I started to think About that and you and I beginning to have different encounters and assignments together now, I kind of joked with you and was like we’re, we’re like the Wonder Twins, you know, maybe.

So maybe showing our age now talking about Old-school DC comics, but but it’s like.

There there is an aspect of God, when God makes himself known by the spirit to, to a male and female man, man and woman of God like us. For example, there is something about my male makeup that the Lord is going to speak to me in that way to express an aspect of his, of his nature, and then he’s going to do the same thing. That’s going to speak to you, that’s going to begin to move through your aspect from a female and it’s not meant to be either or when you put both together, it gives a fuller understanding of what God is doing in the earth. That’s not male dominated or female dominated, but it’s those that are walking side by side Bearing the image of Christ. I think, when we can really understand that, not just from a Marriage perspective, although it’s very important, but a male and female perspective Working together to see Christ image, bear image that that image made known in dark places to those who are separated In that aspect of male and female.

0:10:54 – Tammie Southerland
So yeah, it’s interesting you’re talking about this. You know it’s when you talk about when God took Adam and put him to a deep sleep, or Should say man, mankind, because it wasn’t at that point it was mankind, put him into a deep sleep, and it says that he took out of his side Rip. Informed fashion woman.

I’ve actually been doing some study here recently on the original language and I never knew this before.

But the, the, in the original language, in Hebrew, it says that he put him to a deep sleep and he reached within the chamber, within chamber of his side, and pulled out from his in the within the chamber, and essence of Him, which he created into woman, and so it just brings it to a whole another light to me, and you know, in the aspect of marriage, marriage is probably as close as we can get to understanding what union is supposed to look like with the father, son, boy spirit. You know it’s a physical, it’s an emotional and it’s a spiritual connection, but it was never meant to be limited to that as the body, because it says there’s neither male nor female, greek nor Jew upon or free, and so the reality of that is is, if we can actually begin to enter into the Re, the revelation that Jesus was trying to portray in John 17, the unity, the oneness this is what’s hit me recently there’s a oneness that’s available for us in the body of Christ that can in some ways even surpass what the marriage is.

Is there to, to forecast, for a lack of a better word, because in Christ we’re supposed to be one and we’re supposed to be male nor female, bond or Jew, you know, bond or free. Great north, you were supposed to be able to be restored back to the place of the garden where there is a unity, and and then even in the body of Christ, looking like you know, looking at him in holiness and purity there should be a spiritual and a Relational connection where we can truly become one in the spirit, and I think this is a new language for a lot of us like, like, we’ve never thought about it this way before and of course it’s like you said.

We’ve always thought, okay, well, ministry and marriage, right. Ministry together, men and women run, running together in marriage is the ultimate goal, right. But here’s the problem. Sometimes that doesn’t happen that way because, like your spouse and my spouse, you know, has very different callings than us. We want them to come to the forefront, but the reality is, damon’s not called to a microphone, he’s not called to a platform, he’s called to a business, you know.

And yeah, and what he carries and the way that he comes alongside me, in the way that he covers me, is very different. You know, then, what some would expect men, ministry and marriage to look like, and so if I took that as my only Representation of what it looks like to be one in the spirit, then I wouldn’t understand what he truly meant, what the word truly meant by the body running together. And so I think we’re embarking on something completely different than we’ve considered before. But it’s not. But it’s, it’s biblical, it’s an entrance into the realm of the spirit of oneness that we’ve not actually even considered, partially ably, because we’ve had a religious boundary where we didn’t believe or we didn’t trust that we could run together.

0:14:24 – Wayland Henderson
So true, I think what we’re really talking about is even stepping back. All this is included, in my perspective at least, in Reformation. Reformation with what? What is this thing called ministry, and what is it supposed to look like in the first place? Yeah, and and, and, okay, well, okay, yeah, marriage, marriage ministry doesn’t mean that the Husband and the wife both have a microphone Right it’s and start there. Then, okay, what? What does it even mean To move in ministry? You know, what about business? Is that not an aspect of of ministry? What about the home? Is that not an aspect of ministry? What about, you know, in in the culture?

The challenge, I think, also starts from okay, you have three percent of Of the of the of the church, that’s full-time, and you have 97%, including male and female, that go out into the world and and when you are locked in this framework, that is limited of. This is how the ministry looks and this is how it works. We have a challenge. Even understanding how to move has husband and wife, it’s no wonder that we, we get caught up. Well, how do we move in male and female? And I think what you talked about before, if we are meant to be the place that God dwells, has sacred space, that Holiness and sanctification, is about imparting and partaking of his divine nature. That Begins to cleanse our perspective, heal our hearts and begin to drive out anything that would separate us from him, so that how we view each other Comes from how Christ views he views us.

And when I think of ministry and I think this is something that I love to see with us is, no matter what it looks like, you and I running together Includes our spouses, even though they may not move in the same way. It’s not like, hey, you stay here, we’ll go do ministry and you just pray and and cover. No, everyone is invited to the party and everyone has a place. And I think that belonging for me increases and breaks the limitations Off of of those like you and I being able to run together freely because there’s trust, there’s not separation, there’s inclusion, there’s not exclude, we’re not exclusive. This Okay. Well, this is how our ministry moves. My spouse moves this way, so you can’t come, know, everybody Should have a part to play. And when you see how valuable that is, I think a family moving together in a community Moving together breaks those limitations, because it all first starts with what does ministry really look like, if that all makes sense and yes it does.

0:17:37 – Tammie Southerland
That’s exactly where we are, you know it’s we’re trying to. We’re trying to tear down and rebuild right now, things, mindsets and understandings, especially of ministry in the church, that we believe for so long. So that makes total sense because, you’re right, part of the, the hindrance, has been Ministry looks like a microphone, a platform in a church, whereas we, we’re all created to be ministers under him and a boy. Yes, you know, in the whatever realm of influence that we have, and so I like the way you brought that up. That makes a lot more Sense, and being able to put it in those kind of terms breaks down barriers even further.

0:18:14 – Wayland Henderson
Come on, come on. And even when I I mean me, just I we talked about this before that I, yeah, I have a little sister, my sister. Actually, we had the same birthday seven years apart, and so when, when I was seven and my sister was born, it was like I’m I remember having my little Superman chair Didn’t buy sitting by the crib. It’s like, okay, I’m the protector of my baby sister, right? So it is be funny that anytime something happened, she was more afraid to tell big brother than she was my parents.

You know, I never really paid attention to that growing up, but, you know, having having a baby sister, having two daughters and and strong a, a House full of three strong women, right? I started to realize over the years that even just that aspect of of life and family and Having spiritual daughters that it didn’t matter whether they needed a platform or a microphone in their hand my job has a spiritual father Was to begin to raise them up, to begin to see themselves. Has Christ sees them and don’t allow anything in the culture to begin to hinder their fire and.

Yeah, like I like, even with my, my, my natural daughters, who are so my spiritual daughters, all those together, I Would never want to hinder their will I Don’t call them hardheaded their strong will, right, because culture will suppress that in, in, in women a lot, because there are too many men that are afraid of the strong will and the fire that that women carry.

But if that’s an aspect in the nature of the image of God, I hinder myself from receiving that realm of glory if I begin to try to suppress it. And I think that that’s what we’re talking about is first, if you are, if you are confident and secure, has a man of God and who God has made you and you are fully committed to holiness and righteousness, then the hindrance of what could happen in a relationship with a female, because your heart is not pure in the first place, yeah, you should have parameters. That’s not for you, yeah, but then also on the other side, not being hindered or fearful of a strong woman that begins to carry fire, then I think what we try to navigate through can be, can increase and cause a synergy One chases a thousand, two chases ten thousand, but it all comes from being in a place where we are one with the sanctifier, who continually sanctifies us, who cleanses those places that cause hindrances and reasons for parameters and wrong perspectives in the first place.

0:21:39 – Tammie Southerland
You know, you said something recently. You’re talking about the table. You posted something on Facebook and you talked about the table, making us address our inner or Judas and Peter, and even as you’re talking.

I’m thinking about that because that’s truly what we’re having to do, as any pioneers do, as you go through a process of coming into what we call new is really not new. We’re restoring the the ancient or restoring the old. In all of this, I’m very interested to hear from the standpoint of a man, some of these hindrances that we’ve we’ve faced in the past and you know, even for me personally faced plenty of the reactions and responses that you’re talking about, even with you know being called hard headed, you know being being accused of, you know the fire that I have, being manipulative, how, which is intensely painful, just so you guys know it’s very painful when God is placed within the heart of a woman, a passion for him and a revelation of him. To be accused of something being unholy about. That’s extremely painful and it does shut down. It will shut us down very quickly because we do want to be pleasing to him, we do want to be holy and righteous and we do have our ears open to correction, just to just to make that point. That’s why that is hurtful and it is painful when it’s not true, because we do have our ears open to correction.

But in that you know wayland, saying that I think the table of communion for for us, what we’ve experienced, I think what others are experiencing right now, in and of itself does cause us to have to deal with these things when we partake of. You know, what we’ve been talking about is transfiguration, transformation at that table, addressing things. You know, as we take up the bread, the body of Christ, the blood of Christ, we have to come face to face with the flesh. Talk about that a little bit in the aspect of what we’re talking about right now. You know, just on the, on the male standpoint, what are we doing? What are, how are we dealing with some of these things?

0:23:48 – Wayland Henderson
And that’s so good and that takes me into so many different places. But if you look at the table right, especially communion, when Paul, for example, talks about how to eat of the bread and the and the drink of the cup of the Lord in a worthily manner, because if you eat of this bread and drink of this cup unworthily, there’s judgment comes because you don’t discern the Lord’s body. So in Genesis, if the Lord’s image is embodied in male and female, there is a shaking that I believe that we are in. That is beginning to expose all the places we have been dismembered Because it’s at the table. When it says remember it, the table of remembrance, where, when we begin to see where we have separated God’s body not just including because it’s at the table we’re in in society and culture, even in Paul’s day and even in our day, where society separates us, culture separates us, ethnicity separates us, cultural status separates us. That it also includes where male and female are separated. It’s at the table, where culture, dismembered, all of those spaces are meant to be re membered back together as we can mume with the body in the blood of the Lord. So for me, as a male sitting at the table and beginning to commune on the body in the blood of the Lord means I have to come into union with how he sees women, and one thing that I always begin to teach in our community was when we open up the scriptures, we must read for Christ, and they used to be like what do you mean by read for Christ? Essentially, what it means is when I went up to scriptures and I find out where Christ is. Now I’m being read by the scripture that says what I be, where Christ is. For example, you look at so many places. Where would Jesus be? Jesus would be ministering, sitting at the table with the tax collectors and the sinners. Then you begin to look what I be sitting at the same place Jesus was, or what I be the Pharisees beginning to question him. When Jesus comes and he begins to minister to the woman caught in adultery, the I be where Jesus is be ministering to her, saying go and send no more, or what I be, the Pharisees having a stone in my hand. So when I start to look where Jesus is, jesus began to put women in the scripture, at a forefront, not off to the side. You look at the resurrection.

The early church called Mary, mary Magdalene the apostle the apostles, and that would completely destroy our culture. Now, because when you look at the third day, when they get to the tomb, and they get to the tomb and Peter and John are there and they begin to see grave clothes, but Mary is there first and they’re on the outside of the tomb and Peter and John see grave clothes and they and they leave, but Mary stays in the same place. Catch this that they see the grave clothes. Angels appear Right. So where the men seen dead things, mary actually seen angels that are facing each other, much like the cherubim would be on the mercy seat. So that’s why the early church referred her the apostles, or the apostles, because she was the one that told them he has risen. He has risen and you see the relationship that he had, and sometimes we’ll skip right to Lazarus. Lazarus was his boy. Yeah, lazarus was his boy, but also was Martha and Mary. He was always with Martha, mary and Lazarus.

And so when you start to see things like that, it starts to bring that Okay, where have I has a Peter denied your place, that you put women in Scripture?

Or where have I has a Judas begin to betray you, discounting where you’ve put women in Scripture?

Has you do in Scripture? So, in context of the table, we have to begin to look how does Jesus view the world and does our view line up with his view? And when you start to really have a transparent place like that at the table, then you have to begin to commune and allow that. One thing I love about communion right is you consume it. But it also is where the Hebrew word for consume is also the word for consuming fire. Yeah, the same Hebrew word for a fire being consumed is the same Hebrew word for food being consumed. When you’re at the table and you begin to consume the life and the spirit of the Lord of where would he be that begins to consume you, so that fire should begin to convict and judge you righteously. So your eyes begin to see in a way that they’ve not seen before, and I think that’s that’s why you find the table and the mist of a lot of things that we talk about, including the subject we’re talking about today.

0:30:02 – Tammie Southerland
Right, because the restoration of the table, the revelation and I’ve been talking about the tabernacle in the table the revelation of the restoration of both of those things is a. So it’s essential to everything else that we’re where we’re walking and what we’re stepping into, and it’s been one of the most neglected things in the past, you know, I’d say even 50 years, 30, 30 to 50 years. It’s been one of the most neglected things when it comes to the church. And so this brings me to my next question. You talk about the early church and how. The early church, you know, called Mary the apostle of the apostles. How did we get where we are? How did we get here? No-transcript.

0:30:44 – Burning Messengers
Hey Burning Messenger, we want to interrupt today’s episode to remind you of Tammy’s book Permission to Burn. The book is her testimony on paper. She was on fire and never expected her life to demonstrate anything other than the zeal of God’s heart for his people. Tammy was going to change the world and see millions come to know her Jesus with the same passion and desire. Until the lies and obstacles begin.

Permission to Burn will take you on a journey of truth and release the weight of God’s glory and recommission the believer in Christ to live out his or her identity as a holy messenger. Awaken the courage to reclaim the undeniable truth amid a dangerously confused generation. In part, keys to living the holy, consecrated yet exhilarating, spirit-filled life. Call forth a scriptural plumb line of reformation to the modern church and leadership structure. Combine together hearts of seasoned leaders and young believers for a sustainable last day’s Holy Spirit outpouring. Read Permission to Burn. Get back on the mountain God gave you and take your place in setting this world on fire for the love of Jesus. In your generation you can find Permission to Burn, breaking the chains of compromise from a holy generation, on Amazon.

0:32:04 – Wayland Henderson
Yeah, yeah, I mean the. I think the one thing is real really, where we we kind of picked up from the beginning, is what is this thing called ministry? Or, more importantly, what is this thing called the church, the body of Christ, and? And how do we not assimilate to the culture? But how do we incarnate Christ in the culture? And the more we begin to look like a culture that becomes more male than female, then it’s easily to lose that over time on.

What was Christ’s original intent? To make himself known through male and female. And again he gets back into into ministry. Right and okay, does it mean that we need male and female conferences? Yeah, well, of course we do. Right, probably need more than more than we do, but it’s more than that, right, it’s much more than that, it’s okay.

What is your makeup as an image bearer of Christ, male or female, and do you have the space and permission to make him known in that place? And do you have the, the encouragement? Do you have the, the family of, of, of men around you that are encouraging you and giving you permission to let your fire burn? And do they know you enough? And I think this goes back to communion as well, do they know you enough In order to help cultivate that? And I think that’s that’s a huge thing is we have more I’m just going to say it this way we have more ministry that is transactional than relational, because you don’t sit at the table long enough to get to know somebody. Why, okay, that that woman is very fiery and it’s like she seems like she’s angry all the time. Right, well, it’s probably not true, but do you know why she burns the way that she burns? Do you know what the Lord has given her? When you discern the, the vessel that God has formed with his own hands? Because there is an assignment and a in a people group that need exactly what she carries, and you can be a hindrance of that or you can be a celebrator and cultivate that.

So, when I see that, I celebrate what God does in women, intentionally, actually, because I see that there is a hindrance of, you know, not just in the culture, but there is things that are demonically inspired and I believe that the Lord is using women as a sign of his bride beginning to come forth and I, I can, I can, I can go forever, but I’d have to stop here.

I remember when I started seeing visions of, of, of the bride, right, it was the weirdest visionary encounter and if you’re prophetic, you, you, you’ll, you’ll fully get. You know just weird stuff, you see, and I would see like a head, a Christ, you know, the head of Christ on a, on a, on a on a female body, and I was like what in the world is this? I rebuked you, devil, I don’t know what this is. And this kept happening. And then I began to realize that this is a metaphor. This is not, this is not literal. There’s, there’s something of the bride and the bridegroom being brought together, and it was over that course where I began to see a different aspect of God, that that that’s, that’s a feminine dimension. That began to give me a whole different perspective when I watched God move through women, and I think that’s a hard, hard place for men to grasp.

0:36:44 – Tammie Southerland
Oh, I have so many things I want to ask you right now because I want to know why it’s so hard personally, but at the same time, like just from my perspective, to hear you, to hear you say that brings so much healing even to me and I know that it is to many that are watching right now because one of the places for me, as a woman I grew up Methodist, okay, so Methodist have women preachers, right. So I didn’t know, I didn’t know the rules, right. When I got filled with the Holy Spirit and I began to just burn for the Lord, god redeemed everything for me. I was, I was like burning in redemption everything I taught on fire. I’m not, I’m like, I’m not boasting. I was so, so, so immature, like I didn’t know anything, okay, but everything I touched turned to, turned to fire, like just igniting revival on my college campus, the campus that I was raped at. I went back to this college campus, started a group and it lit up. I mean, it was, it was everything I touched burned and it was the redemption on my life.

And it wasn’t until I came ahead to head with with religion that I began to question the validity of who I was. Didn’t understand why, but I began to be shown scriptures that said that what I was doing was basically against the law of God, and so I had to try to figure out within myself why it says that all should go, that we should all go into the world and preach, we should all go into the world and heal and deliver and set the captives free, but why that didn’t apply to me. Why was I not a part of all? And so that was such a just, such a internal wrestle. So I would spend years dialoguing with God and asking him to show me how he felt about me. Help me to understand. You know, show me in scripture where there’s covenant with women. And so if you were to tell me in scripture where you use women, of course he would. He always did. You know, it was amazing the way that he would show me these things that were being told I was being told were not true. But then the Lord would illuminate to me many, many instances in scripture, deborah being one of them, but honestly, the very one of the very few, you know that’s outwardly in front. The Lord began to show me Sarah. The Lord began to show me Mary Magdalene and Mary Bethany, who were beginning to show me hoodlum, or you know, the, the, the very unknown prophets and apostles that were female.

But it was this constant struggle, um, wayland, because I didn’t understand, I couldn’t, within myself, grasp what the Lord was showing me and what man was saying to me. And, of course, if you, you guys, know, like that’s why I wrote the book, permission to burn it came out of that struggle. Struggle, but, wayland, like, help us to understand, you know where, why is it so hard for men to acknowledge the move of God through women? I know there are scriptures that that, um, you know, paul wrote within scripture and we don’t really understand, we didn’t understand them at face value and we had to wrestle those things out. But but talk a little bit about that too. Like, encourage women and encourage men about your journey, and why is that so hard?

0:40:01 – Wayland Henderson
Yeah, there, there’s, uh, you know when I, when I think of, I mean what we’re really talking about is, um, cultures and mindsets that are are demonically inspired and they’re over generations and generations, where what is tolerated in one generation uh becomes resisted fully in the next one. And you start to see, over time, uh, when the, when the culture of the world becomes so patriotic, you know, and um, and and male dominated it, uh, it just hinders. And then when the church, uh and this is a broad stroke, this doesn’t mean everybody, obviously uh, when you don’t realize that there are, you know, places that you become friends with the world and then you become an enemy of the Lord. I think that’s one place that has been hard to break through over time. I believe the time we’re in now is, uh, the Lord is shaking. All of that Um, for me, I think again the, the, the journey that I’ve been on, um being a, the beauty of having a, a son and two daughters, and I think that combination alone you get to see both sides and um, and you see, uh, how women are treated, that are very strong, willed and spirit led, and it really takes the heart of a man to to embrace the cross shaped life, because what this makes me think of is Colossians too, when the, when Paul begins to start to talk about that.

Principalities and powers were disarmed by the cross. So let’s start there, when a church fully starts, to not be afraid that I’m going to embrace the cross shaped life in this area, but I don’t know about that area because I’m afraid of what that would look like. You know, it’s like every fiery woman is not a Jezebel. Okay, yeah, and then you. And again, here’s what happens in my context of my journey when I see a woman that is on fire, in the same time, I know that she’s been wounded by by church, I am confident enough to let her burn while at the same time being an extension of Christ through a male voice that’s not afraid of her fire but also is not afraid of her wounds.

That’s good, right what you said, right Um it’s key Not afraid of her fire but also not afraid of her wounds, because what I find with leaders is Is they’re they’re not just afraid of the fire, they’re afraid of the wounds and and, and they don’t understand how to set parameters right To put them in a healthy space when you are being an extension of a leader of Christ to them, so that the wounds of Christ can heal their wounds and they can build a trust, not just with Christ, but Christ being made known through men.

So good and that, that, every that there are men that are not there to hurt you, they’re not there to manipulate you, they’re not there to suppress you, but there are men that are there to see you heal, see you lift it up and seeing you push down into your purpose. And I found myself, along with my wife, and that’s the beauty of it is, I can Delivrate the, the, the ministry of women, along with my wife. They give both aspects of it, but I can fully begin to be a father, I can be a brother, oh, whatever. That is Because the time frame we’re in with reformation, um, especially when we were in wells, and there was a moment we were in wells and we were, we were at one of the churches I think we’re a pig spa with um, but Evan Roberts, he’d be built the, the iron gates, and the Lord started to talk about the blacksmith that were being forged there.

Yeah, and you know, we’re all sharing what the Lord is saying. And and I remember when the Lord started to talk to me about reformation and he said that there would be A need of the wells, of wells Would open up because intercession needed to match Like into the bible college in wells. But he also began to say at that time that there would be not only wells that opened up, but there would be women whaling.

0:45:52 – Tammie Southerland

0:45:53 – Wayland Henderson
And they would become a well, because there is a need of an outpouring that would wash away a refuge of lies, that would begin to Resign what the image of Christ looks like, both male and female, and I think there’s healing waters that the Lord desires to to, to pour, to pour out in those places, um, and there’s. There’s boldness and transparency and purity that pours out for both male and female. So there can be healthy spaces and places when we can move together and there can be healing for the things that have that have come and passed through, you know, male dominated leadership. And there can be places for not only women to move on stages, but women to move In whatever space or calls, without thinking that they’re less than will realize their purpose. I think that’s an aspect of it too.

0:46:55 – Tammie Southerland
So I have to.

0:46:56 – Wayland Henderson
I, there’s my rant.

0:46:58 – Tammie Southerland
I smile when you start talking about the gates and wells because I have a picture of you. I’m gonna have to throw this up on the post edit. Have a picture of you laying by that gate, wrecked in wells.

0:47:09 – Wayland Henderson
Yeah, yeah.

0:47:11 – Tammie Southerland
But, but the beauty, the beauty of that is I don’t know if you know this I’m actually reading a book caught talking. It’s about the women of wells and the, the intercession, and the travail that went forth from these women.

For even up to 40 years before the, the revival Hit, there were women that carried this travail, carried this intercession that actually birthed and there were many voices of women that aren’t necessarily we don’t really know about Whenever it comes to that revival, and so it’s interesting that you are having that, that encounter, that revelation, because there was actually a well there from Travelling women in well. Yeah.

0:47:52 – Wayland Henderson

0:47:52 – Tammie Southerland

0:47:53 – Wayland Henderson
I didn’t know that. That’s incredible and it’s beautiful.

0:47:56 – Tammie Southerland
Yeah, the Lord gave me a word. I can’t, I was gonna try to pull it up, but, um, I shared it this past weekend when I was in Virginia. But the Lord gave me a word, I think it was back in 2015. The same way that he birthed forth Um, the, the new covenant, the covenant of Christ, through the womb of a woman, so he would, at the end of the age, bring forth his return Through the womb of a woman, being the womb of travail, with the womb of intercession and even the voice that would trump it, and it is the wailing women. And so this is such an important conversation, it’s important restoration to have right now, and even in all that we’re saying, I think the key factor that we’re Um, we’re finding right now, it is the table, it is the, the relational connection. Uh, because you can’t discern, you know, what someone carries if you’re only looking at, looking at it through the lens of ministry, what we call ministry, if you’re only looking at it through the lens of how, how she sounds or he sounds on a platform. Um, and and honestly, I believe that’s why we have a lot of hurt and woundedness Is because the relational aspect of family within church family, our personal families, connecting with each other and family in general has been really non-existent For for many, many years, and so it’s easy for someone to assume Ill motives and call it discernment, which is a problem that we have in the charismatic media, in the charismatic world. We call our discernment, you know, we think our discernment is the word of the lord, when a lot of times it’s our just our wounds playing on one another’s wounds and we’re not willing to get to know one another, we’re not willing to come together and see, you know, what christ is placed within one another. And we’ve been saying this for years. Just for a lack of time I’m not going to really go into it, but years ago I was very involved in the reconciliation movement.

Whenever you basically, especially in the south, breaking down walls of division between, you know, white and black african-americans and you know, breaking down some of that in intercession and going and doing repentance and things like that in different places where horrible things have happened, and part of all of that reconciliation we would say the bloodline was washed away in the uh, I mean sorry, the um Dividing line was washed away in the blood of jesus. But but that wasn’t even the answer and I kept bringing this, this to the table the answer is not even. It is intercession, yes, but it’s. It is sitting at a table like how can you truly have unity if you’re not going to sit with one another and get to know one another and in one another’s family and in one another’s hearts and their intentions in the day to day? And so we really sure, you know, we kept doing reconciliation service after reconciliation service after reconciliation service, and we’d wash feet and we’d wash feet, but we’d still see racial division, racial, racial pension, and that was because we didn’t know how to sit together.

0:50:51 – Wayland Henderson

0:50:52 – Tammie Southerland
And I believe this is the same thing. I believe this is the next, the next phase in this restoration it is between male and female is when are we going to sit together?

0:51:03 – Wayland Henderson
So good, so good, so good. Yeah, because you, you have to hear each other’s heart.

Yeah in order to understand each other’s perspective. I think the the, the danger and, dare I say, the excuse that we have in in the larger charismatic movement Is we, we exchange, we’re getting to know somebody that with the phrases I know you by the spirit. Yeah, I said it, I said it Well, I know you by the spirit, so I don’t need to sit at the table to get to know you. You may discern some things, but you can’t get a download Of a history of someone’s life. If you’re not willing to sit at the table and get to know them and because we’re On this, I’m gonna run, run, run, but never sit and begin to be and learn with people Then you really don’t know why they are the way that they are. And I think, I think you’re, I think you’re right and I I agree that the culture has to shift In order for us to begin to sit and get to know who people are, especially mel and bima.

0:52:28 – Tammie Southerland
Right, so good, it’s all so good. We could just keep talking about it forever. I just appreciate you so much. I’m so thankful for you and and what you carry and your family and what god’s doing honestly right now. I think it’s a prophetic, just a prophetic picture of what god’s doing. I really do believe that there’s something even more. You know that we’ve not yet really tapped into, but you know even as I said, that with the racial reconciliation, I believe there is a great bridal reconciliation reconciliation happening, um, and and you know it’s like you said, the bride itself, you know, in the table of remembrance, has been dismembered and and there’s a beautiful Remembrance that god is positioning us for.

And it’s and again, like my whole statement earlier, was Can we do this in consecration and holiness? That shouldn’t even honestly be a question. Of course we can, you know, but we have to show a generation, the generation behind us, what it looks like to walk in Holiness of consecration and remember the body, pull the body back together, breakdown barriers, religion and fear Uh, that’s caused us from being able to, you know, emulate christ in the way that he wants to be Portrayed, the way that he wants to shine in the darkness, and you know the dark is getting darker, things are shaking and you know the kingdom’s unshakable.

So if we can believe that, do we really believe that, you know, we can come together and and and move in a power, for a lack of better word, and anointing that we’ve not yet moved in, and it’s not because it’s not been available.

0:54:06 – Wayland Henderson
Right, right, you know I’ve noticed over um, the lord will give signposts right on on what he does and and you have, you have to pick up those subtleties. So for me, in personal ways, even beyond of what I shared before, um, I would, I had this, um, I had this dream and I I we talked about this dream before, so I won’t get into all of it, but the part of the dream was I was in this house and I was holding this baby girl Remember that dream time and but I was holding the baby like she was mine, but she wasn’t. And there was all things about family that was happening in the house and we were getting ready for a meeting and there were, there were, there were kids that were standing on the window sills wanting to look out. So there’s, there’s something that was coming that the, the younger generation wanted to see. And I remember, I remember Lou Engel was was in the house and the first dream I ever had about Lou Engel and and you know he’s he’s rocking and we love you and he’s rocking and he’s giving this expression that he’s about to announce a movement. And you know I had conversations with this about our friends willing to have them for because they were in the dream.

I won’t get into all that, but one thing when I was talking to Will on the phone, I was sharing the dream with them and then to have them was listening and she had said she talked about the, the gathering that they were, they were having on the women’s movement, and the Wingo was coming in and and felt like there was something significant about the women’s movement and holding that baby, protecting what the Lord was going to do with women. And that part really really identified and I think that’s really a narrative of all we talked about before is there is something the Lord is birthing through women, not not to discount men, but to bring a fuller expression of what God is doing in the earth. And and you start to see that and I would find that I would go to different places being different nations and and and doing ministry and I would be drawn to to, to young girls that were the same age as my daughters and it was like there was something the Lord wanted to birth through them, through me as a father, you know, and I would always begin to grab where their family is and and set those parameters so they wouldn’t begin to think anything and you know so it was this station identification, you know, always moving wisdom and pure and purity, right and but we were. We were in Nicaragua a couple months ago and and there were these two young ladies that I begin to give one of the strongest, longest words about a Deborah anointing on them, that at first I was like Lord, why are, why am I giving such a strong word about a Deborah anointing on these two young, these two young ladies?

You know I said who, your who’s, your family or around you, and started to realize that Deborah and and Barack, barack, however, you know, you know you want to pronounce it tomato, tomato, but they, when they begin to come forth and Deborah has a judge, began to sit under the palm tree, palm trees, victory overcoming, and begin to judge at a time when there were, there was corruption.

You know, it’s like every time a judge come, they is were coming, deliverance, and then judge, believe and they go back into their ways that were evil and they go on the side of the Lord.

Well, there was a culture of evil that the Lord began to raise up Deborah and then here comes Deborah and Barack and begins to receive. God raised up Deborah at a time that he wanted to bring what was out of alignment back into alignment, and I, when I started to think about Lord. Why is there such a strong anointing to begin to release this to a younger generation? Because they need to have a different narrative than our generation. They need to have a different narrative and there needs to be a pulling out and a growing up of those hidden Debra’s that are, that are that are developing in secret places and dark spaces to be celebrated and begin to push forward. And Deborah and Barack, when you see the celebration, the song of Deborah and Barack has jail begins to take the tent peg. You know the to the head of their enemy and it says the princes of Isacar begin to follow Deborah.

0:59:41 – Tammie Southerland
Wow, yeah, yeah.

0:59:43 – Wayland Henderson
So there is. There is an Isacar anointing that I believe is upon women right now that are serving has assigned the times and what. The Lord. There is a transition that’s happening. There is a fuller expression of God’s glory and he is marking them, has a signpost of what he’s about to do.

1:00:05 – Tammie Southerland
And I want to say this, to respond, and I want to have you, I want to have you pray her a prophesy, however, you are led in. The beautiful thing I love and we’ve talked about this before about Deborah and Barack was that there was no competition there, even though you know I’ve heard it preached that it was a second. It was in girls. Ladies, I want you to hear me say this she was not God’s second choice.

Come on God’s second choice and it’s been preached to us, has been told to us that that she was God’s second choice and that there was a. It was a curse that the credit went to a woman when it came to Deborah and Barack. That is just not true. It is a lie. And it was actually God. Use Barack to elevate her voice and to identify her ability to hear from God. And in those days they consulted the judges, they consulted God and whether or not they would have victory in a battle. And so he was a humble man who was consulting the Lord and wanted victory in the battle in the same way that you know. You know, moses was like I’m not going to go unless you go. It’s the same thing like he was like I’m not going into battle unless you go with me, and he was saying unless the Lord goes with me, I’m not going and I don’t care who gets the credit.

And it’s so important for us to redeem that storyline because it was the. It’s the Barak that we need, it’s the Mordecai that we need. You know, it’s Jesus that we need that says no, you’re not a second thought, you’re not. You are born for such a time as this and it’s so important in this hour that we have men like you, wayland and Lou Engel and Will Ford and the others that are coming forward and say you know, we need the voice of the women in this hour and you’re not a second thought. You know that’s even been preached and I’ve heard I think it was Catherine Coleman that said you know, god chose so many other men and then he finally, you know, kind of fell on me because nobody else with the answer.

I love Catherine Coleman, but that’s just not true. That’s not how, that’s not our father, that’s not how he operates. And in this, this stories in the Bible, that that proved to us the truth. And this is the power of men and women running together, because we do need the strong voice of our husbands and our brothers to come alongside of us. My dad used to tell me this, you know, he used to tell me all the time you can do anything you put your mind to. I love, love how my dad always encouraged me. He really told me there was nothing that I could not do and that’s why it was so blind. I was so blindsided by religion because I’m like well, my dad said I could do whatever I wanted to.

1:02:39 – Wayland Henderson
You know that’s a great dad. That’s a great dad.

1:02:42 – Tammie Southerland
I didn’t have a grid for it. You know, I grew up with, you know strong brothers also and cousins, wayland, you know, and they didn’t they, they, they gave me a run for my money because they were guys, but they told me how to be strong. But but I grew up with that kind of encouragement and it’s so important to acknowledge that the significance of who you are in this and in men are in this, and so I know you’re going to run, but I want to get you to just go ahead and pray and just release whatever the Lord is speaking to you and thank you so much for you know everything and who you are in in all of this way. Look.

1:03:22 – Wayland Henderson
Amen. You know it’s an honor to be on here and with you and all that you represent, not just as a woman of God, but one who carries the fire of God and and just I’m thankful to run with you and all the Lord is doing with all of our crew and our families, and look forward to all the things the Lord is preparing for the future. And I want to speak to those women who think they’re off to the side or think that God has left them to the side, or that you missed the time in the season. I believe in the time that we are in. You are right, on time. You were with purpose and on purpose. God has appointed you not only for your generation, but to begin to break the barrier for those that come after you, that what the Lord will begin to do through you, that your ceiling will be the floor of the next generation, we believe, to begin to break cultural limitations within the body of Christ, so that the full expression of who God is will be made manifest through male and female. And, lord, I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I’m gonna prophesy and I want to speak to the God that is hidden many times in our culture, in women, that they would begin to shine bright.

The beauty of the nature of women is they are the glory of the man, which means that when you look at Adam and and, and it says that God pulled one man out of his side, so women become the greatest expression of the womb of the man. And the man is Christ Jesus, who is last Adam. So just as Adam was laid to a deep sleep and woman, the womb of the man, was pulled out of his side, jesus on the cross went into a deep sleep when he said that this finished and out of his side came the bride. And I believe that when you look at, when you, when you look at Eve, when it says the evening to help me says that he was, she would declare and prophesy and bring forth the hidden glory and Adam. And I believe there’s a, there’s a glory that can only be made known, in a certain dimension, by God beginning to move through women, and there’s a dimension of glory that can only be known by God moving through men. When you put male, the glory of God moving through male and the glory of God moving through female, then you have the fuller expression of what it means to bear the image of God.

I call forth that hidden glory and women right now to come forth at your time and hour to shine. As darkness increases, may the light and the knowledge of the glory begin to shine forth so that God would be made known. Let Debra’s come forth in Jesus name. Let Esther’s come forth at your time, at your season, at your hour. Let the whaling women begin to open up the wells of revival and awakening so that a world can see the full expression of who God is and Lord I rep. I also want to begin to say I repent, on behalf of male leaders, to many of you that have been hindered, that have been suppressed, that have have not been a in a space where you were able to burn and not been in the space where you’re able to heal. May the Lord begin to heal in such a way that his wounds would heal your wounds, so that you begin to move in a great expression of the victory that God has in his hour for you, in Jesus name hear me, yeah, yeah yeah yeah, thank you.

1:07:49 – Tammie Southerland
I just again, so thankful for you. This whole conversation was powerful. You guys thank you so much for joining us. Well, and I know you got to jump off. You got another thing to do. I’m just going to close it out, but, guys, I just thank you so much for joining us again being a part of this podcast. We just want you to know that you don’t have to burn along. We’re bringing brand new content to you in the season. We’re going to be talking more about intercession, more about the power of intercession and how that connects with the fivefold ministry and the prophetic gifts and all the things. We’re going to continue to move in the prophetic in this podcast, but we really wanted to bring that kind of teaching into you again. These I hope these sessions are blessing you, talking about men and women running together. They’re essential in this hour. So again, thank you so much for joining us and remember you don’t have to burn alone.

Prepare to challenge your traditional viewpoints as we delve into a thought-provoking conversation about breaking down religious barriers between men and women, guided by biblical examples and a quest for mutual understanding.

By the end of this episode, you’ll have an enlightened view of the call for women’s voices to be heard, the necessity for holy alliances between the sexes, and the crucial role of consecration and holiness in this often sensitive and controversial topic. We’ll journey through the maze of religion and its role in establishing divides between the genders, seeking the powerful freedom that Christ offers beyond the law of sin and death.

Our exploration will take us through the significance of purity, unity, and how Jesus pushed boundaries to set the weak free, referencing Mary of Bethany. We’ll also take a cue from Paul’s perspective on overcoming the law of sin and death.

Our discussion will further dissect the beauty of living a holy life, capable of overcoming sin, and the essence of consecration in maintaining purity. We’ll touch on God’s call to purity, the need for maturity, and the eradication of the little foxes that hinder us from forming a holy alliance with someone of the opposite sex. Wrapping up, we’ll reflect on the freedom from the law of sin and death, brought about by holiness and consecration, and the unity in God’s glory that calls for celebration.

Tune in for a transformative conversation that promises to reshape your understanding of this fundamental issue.

Where to dive in:

(0:00:00) – Religious Barrier Breakage Between Men and Women (9 Minutes)

We explore how God calls women’s voices forward in this hour, and how to break religious barriers between men and women. We discuss the importance of holy alliances between men and women, and how this is a very touchy subject that requires consecration and holiness. We look to scripture to see examples of holy alliances between men and women, such as Deborah and Barak, and how Deborah was a judge in Israel, appointed by the Lord to judge Israel and to be a prophetic voice. It is God’s design to have men and women be allies, and not adversaries.

(0:08:53) – Religion vs. Freedom in Christ (6 Minutes)

We {explore} the role of religion in separating men and women, and how freedom in Christ is greater than the law of sin and death. We {examine} the importance of purity, holiness, and consecration, and how men and women must come together to break down these religious barriers. We consider the example of Mary of Bethany and how Jesus pushed the boundaries of religion and set the weak free. We also look at Paul’s perspective on the law of sin and death and the gift of God’s life in the spirit.

(0:15:15) – Living in the Spirit, Overcoming Sin (10 Minutes)

We discuss the power of the law of sin and death and how it can lead to sin if not properly applied. We examine the importance of living a life of holiness and how to recognize and control our sinful passions. Examples are provided of how sin can be triggered by the law and how it can lead to adulterous relationships. The power of the Spirit to bring life and how it enables us to live a life of holiness and purity is explored.

(0:25:19) – Importance of Consecration in Affair Anatomy (13 Minutes)

We explore the importance of consecration and living a lifestyle of holiness as a way to defeat the strong desires of the flesh. We discuss how compromises and sin can lead to a string of affairs and how God calls us to holiness, not abstinence, as a way to maintain purity. We examine how an affair in ministry can devastate not only the person and their spouse, but also the family line, ministry calling, and children. We also emphasize the importance of having a moral compass and at least one trusted friend to keep each other accountable and protect each other’s purity.

(0:38:24) – God’s Call to Purity and Consecration (4 Minutes)

We examine the importance of walking in maturity and taking out the little foxes in our lives in order to be called into a holy alliance with someone of the opposite sex. We discuss how God is calling us to put away our condescending judgments and religious thinking, and to have friendship and even emotional and spiritual connections with one another. We look at how training ourselves in the secret place and the daily life, and putting aside every weight that hinders and the sin that so easily holds us back, is how we are able to walk in the spirit and the holiness that God has called us to. We discuss how we are called to bring back consecration and to stop pointing fingers at women and men and instead to lift each other up. Finally, we pray for deliverance from lustful thoughts and religious thinking.

(0:42:14) – Freedom and Unity in God’s Glory (1 Minutes)

We discuss how to live in freedom from the law of sin and death through holiness and consecration. We examine how to break down the barriers between men and women and foster a culture of unity and purity to raise the dead together at the end of the age. We explore the power of holiness and the importance of maturity in achieving this mission.

About the host:

Tammie Southerland is the host of Burning Messengers and the author of Permission To Bur: Breaking the Chains of Compromise from a Holy Generation. She is also a speaker and prophetic minister. She releases the sound authentic of revival and messages from heaven as she travels. Her lifestyle is one of prayer and digging deep into the Word of God, her desire is to releasing the Heart of The Father in these last days. She moves in power ministry and is known for releasing the Matthew 3:11 “baptism of Holy Fire” as she goes. ⁠

Buy Tammie’s Book “Permission to Burn: Breaking the Chains of Compromise from a Holy Generation” here⁠:

Burning Gear


0:00:00 – Tammie Southerland
Death comes through the recognition. Listen, if I know that coveting is wrong, then it will be a mirror to me so that my heart is pierced and, in the law of the spirit, I quickly am identifying covetousness in my heart, and so, as soon as the seed comes in, I begin to recognize it, because I know the law and, by the spirit, I do not want it. So therefore, I apply the blood of the lamb to the desire of covetousness and I am crucified with Christ, knowing he holds no good thing. He withholds no good thing from me when I walk up rightly before him, and so I’m able to put to death the deeds of the flesh and live in the life of the spirit. Hi guys, tammy Sutherland here coming to you with some more controversial topics.

I’m the host of the Burning Messengers podcast and I’ve really been on this topic lately about God calling women’s voices forward in this hour, and part of that very, very important message is being able to run together, men and women running together in holy alliances. And today that’s what we’re gonna talk about breaking religious barriers between men and women, why this is so important, and I’m gonna hit some of the controversial subjects that we’ve probably this probably actually caused us to stumble in the past, more than we realize it. So thank you again for joining me. My name is Tammy Sutherland and listen. The whole point of the show, the whole point of the podcast, the ministry is so that you know that you don’t have to burn alone. Our topic, our message, our heart is purity, it’s consecration, it’s fire and so anything that we share here. Please do not hear what I’m not saying. My goal is always to call you higher into consecration and holiness and purity, but I want you to understand the power of God that is within you, to set you apart, to consecrate you and call you to walk in fullness of who he is.

All right, I’m gonna pray because this is actually a very touchy subject. I don’t need any of the enemy or backlash jumping into this subject, because I do not. I’m not so prideful as to think that we can’t. I can’t fall into temptation. I’m gonna talk about that in the show. So, father, I thank you so much for the opportunity to share your message, your heart, with the people today. Gotta pray that your words would come forth with purity, that nothing would be twisted or misunderstood in any way. I bind the powers of darkness that may try to twist or fashion or form this message into a license to sin. And anyway, god, I thank you that you are here, you are with us and you’re setting us free, you’re fortifying us in this hour and calling us up higher in Jesus’ name. Lord, would you raise up messengers of purity, would you call us into the holiness that you created us for All? Right, if you see me looking down, I’m looking at my notes just so you know. So this is a very important subject matter. My notes just went somewhere and I wanna I do wanna talk about it with all, with the fear of the Lord.

Okay, so we are human beings. We were born into sin, with the seed of sin in us, right, and so what? We have to understand that, when we were set free by the blood of Christ, that we were set free from the curse that resulted from Adam and Eve’s sin, and so the part of the reason that we have such a struggle, with men and women running together in holy alliances, is it’s because of the seed of sin, but it’s also because of the spirit of religion, and so we’ve gotta understand that Jesus, when he came, he set us free from the law of sin and death unto righteousness in Christ. It’s the blood of the Lamb and the word of his testimony is identifying with the cross, shape life. It’s identifying with him in his sacrifice that causes us to walk holy and to walk pure. It’s only by the blood that we can even begin to walk in the way that he’s called us to walk. But we are supposed to walk without sin, we’re supposed to walk in purity, and scripture says in Genesis 318, the Lord said it’s not good for a man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him. Yes, this scripture is about marriage, but it’s not all about marriage. It’s about the alliance between man and woman, because we have different parts to play in the complete understanding or the complete representation of the gospel of Jesus Christ, of the character of God, as we come together and we work together.

I love Chris Valentin. He’s got a book it’s called Fashion to Rain. He’s been a great proponent for men and women running together in ministry. He’s been great to kind of bring women back into the place where they have a voice and to kind of pull down some of these barriers or some of these misrepresentations that religion has tried to portray onto women and men at the same time, and this is what Chris Valentin says. He says it is God’s design for men and women to be allies, not adversaries. I want you to hear that again. It is God’s design for women and men and women to be allies and not adversaries. The Bible is rich with examples of holy alliances between them, working side by side to fulfill God’s purpose. This is so important, this word holy alliance and we can see this throughout Scripture with Deborah and Barak. We’re going to look at that for just a little bit.

But Deborah and Barak Deborah was a judge. She was the judge in Israel. It says that men came to her because they knew that she heard from the Lord. She’d been appointed by the Lord to judge Israel. What does that mean? That means that she was a prophet. That means that in that time they had judges and not kings, and the judges actually were the prophetic voice. They would seek the counsel of the Lord and the Lord would give his counsel and the people would come to them in order to hear into the counsel of the Lord. That even included war. It included whether or not they were going to have victory in war. So Deborah was a person in the hour in which she lived, that her husband understood and realized the anointing of God on her life and that men would come to her because they needed to be able to hear from the Lord. And there was a holy alliance between Barak and Deborah. We can read about that in just a little bit later, but before we jump into that, I want to talk about this men and women together Is it dangerous or is it transformative?

So this is where some of the stuff is going to get a little bit, probably new to some people that are listening. I believe it’s going to set some of this free, because the problem is not when men and women walk together. The danger is not us being together. The danger is sin, and it’s also the law. Listen to me, it’s religion and it’s sin that causes men and women to stumble.

Okay, Galatians three, 28 says there’s either June or Gentile slave nor free, nor is there male or female, for you are all one in Christ. I want you to stop right there and listen to me. Listen, this is so important because when we are in heavenly realms together I’m not even talking about when we go to heaven when we are in heavenly realms together, we are one in Christ. There is a dynamic unity in the presence of God that we are called to often talk about, where we are seated with him in heavenly realms. We are called to be one in him in those heavenly realms. We’re going to share revelation together, we’re going to share emotion together, we’re going to share the feelings of God together in those realms. And if we don’t understand that the feelings of God, the revelation of God in themselves, as we share them together, are not sinful, then we’ll actually stumble into sin. Because what Christ blood did was removed, the dividing line between us and him and us and one another, and so we’re able to be seated together in revelatory realms, gaining an understanding of Christ. And it says where two or more gather together, there he is in the midst of them. That’s both male and female.

You see, religion actually separates men and women from prayer and intercession. You can look at the Wailing Wall in Israel. The men and women are separated. It’s because religion is still in act right there. Religion, the basically saying no, don’t touch this constantly, is actually going to spurn us towards sin instead of the freedom in Christ by the blood of the lamb, where we are one in him, that causes us to look at him and go above that, to sit with him and revelate and understand who he is, together so that we can grow together, because you have a part and I have a part, and there’s a totally different way that my brother will see and understand the revelation of God, even if I’m in the same encounter as he is. And we need each other’s part and peace. And there’s something powerful about intercession when men and women are together in the same room, in the same revelation, in the same outcry for Jesus, the outcry for what the spirit is saying in the earth. And so if we aren’t careful we’ll separate and we’ll completely miss the point, because we’re more afraid of our flesh than we are in trust of the spirit of God. And to that point, Galatians 516 says so if I walk in the spirit, I will not gratify the desires of the flesh. Romans 8 2 says for the law of the spirit is life, which is in Christ Jesus, but the law of our new beginning or new being I’m reading the amplified has set you free from the law of sin and death. So the law will drive you to sin and the spirit will set you free. So that’s Romans 7. We’re going to read that in just a second, but I’m going to pause right here. So the law of sin and death will drive you to sin, but the law of the spirit will set you free.

I want to take you back for just a moment to whenever I was a young, 20 year old woman coming out of the world, and my experience with the world was pretty traumatic. My testimony is pretty wild, and the number one thing, the most important thing to me, was my purity. It was, it was consecration and it was purity, because that is something that God gave back to me, the very thing whenever I was in more of a religious mindset, the very thing that I did not want to do, I continued to do. When I was in a religious mindset, I was set free from when I got baptized in the Holy Spirit and fire. And so when I got baptized in the Holy Spirit and fire, the fire of God came upon me and I began to be desperately longing to be intimate with him, and I knew that sin and I knew that anything unholy in me would separate me from him. Therefore, purity and consecration was and still is forever my longing and my goal.

And so when I began to enter into a courtship with my husband. The number one thing I told him is if you really truly love me, you will protect my purity, you will call me into who God has created me to be and the voice that God has called me to be, and you will not defile me with the desires of the flesh. And I know like that’s not popular in these days, that’s not popular now, but I want to tell you something that that statement to my husband was a first Corinthians 13 reality of love. For love is patient, love is kind, it’s not jealous. And so if we truly love one another, and in Christ, as men and women, when we get to run together, we must love one another, we must fall in love with one another and we’re gonna fall in love with one another, but it’s a holy love and that love will be for the purity and the consecration and the holiness of my brother and the holiness you brothers, morticons, that are standing there and calling women forth, the purity and holiness of your sister. And so in internally, we will have to wrestle the the flesh and call it to be put to death. I’m just getting very real with us, and so some of the things that we have put in place in the past boundaries in order to keep sin from happening in ministry, actually is causing sin to happen. Because we’re not calling people to consecration, we’re not calling people to holiness, we’re calling people to behavioral modification.

And listen. In the Middle East, women are covered from head to toe. Many oftentimes you can only see their eyes. And these women are still raped, they’re still abused sexually and they’re blamed for it. And the reason that their rape or their their abuse sexually is not because they were seductive, it’s not because they were uncovered, it’s because of sin. Sin is the issue. Sin driven within the heart of man causes you to chase after the deeds of the flesh, whereas the spirit of God indwelling in us should call us into consecration, purity, into a higher level. It says no good thing. Well, he withholds from those who walk up brightly before him. So righteousness begins to be our goal, and trusting and believing that God is the good thing.

It says that Mary and we’ll talk about her in just a minute Mary of Bethany sat at the feet of Jesus and Jesus said that Mary had chosen the good part, the part that could not be taken away from her in comparison to Martha’s anxiety. And so the good part, the good thing that God has promised us, is found in the freedom of the spirit. And, by the way, it was taboo for Mary to be sitting at the feet of Jesus. It was taboo for her to even be in the room. That’s why there was so much tension there, and Jesus often, very often, pushed the boundaries of religion and set the most weak free, those who were deemed unworthy of even being in the presence of a teacher or a rabbi. He set them free because the law of sin is death, but the gift of God is is righteousness right. The law of sin is death. The gift of God brings life, and it’s life in the spirit. Okay, and so let’s talk about Paul for just a minute. The law drives us to sin, but the spirit drives us to holiness.

I’m gonna read a good portion of scripture right now. Just be patient with me, okay. Okay, so it says in Romans 7 for while we are in the flesh, the sinful passions which are aroused by the law we’re at, work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we’ve been released from the law, having died to that which we were bound, so that we will serve the newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter. Let me explain something to you a dead man can’t lust. A dead man can’t lust. If the lust rises up, then then you’re not dead, and you’ve got to find out why. What was the open door? And shut it quickly, because it says that we’re dead. We’ve been crucified with Christ. It’s not him, it’s not I that live, but he who lives in me, and I’m a living sacrifice.

I recently posted on living martyrs. Yes, it is sometimes more difficult to be a living martyr than it might be to be a momentary lay down my life, because I will have to continually live in the spirit where I’m putting to death the deeds of the flesh. And so what shall we say then? Is the law sin? May it never be. On the contrary, I would not have come to no sin except through the law, for I would not have known about covenate coveting if the law had not said you should not covet. But sin, taking the opportunity through the commandment produced in me, coveting of every kind apart from the law, sin is dead and died in this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me. For sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and though it killed through it, it killed me. So which is good, that which is good, came and caused me death. May it never be. Rather, it was sin in order that the commandment of sin would become utterly sinful.

Okay, listen to this. Death comes through the recognition. Listen, if I know that coveting is wrong, then it will be a mirror to me so that my heart is pierced and in the law of the Spirit, I quickly am identifying covetousness in my heart, and so as soon as the seed comes in, I begin to recognize it, because I know the law and, by the Spirit, I do not want it. So therefore, I apply the blood of the Lamb to the desire of covetousness and I am crucified with Christ, knowing he holds no good thing. He withholds no good thing from me when I walk uprightly before Him, and so I’m able to put to death the deeds of the flesh and live in the life of the Spirit. But if all I have is the law, I’m going to stare at an item.

Let’s take, for example I’m going to sit in ice cream in front of a child and I’m going to tell a child don’t touch the ice cream and I’m going to walk away and I tell the child, say, over and over and over, it is sin for me to touch the ice cream, it is sin for me to touch the ice cream. It is sin for me to touch the ice cream, but the ice cream is within touching distance of the child, who literally cannot wait to touch the ice cream. And so so the law now has become a way of sin for the child. Eventually the child’s going to touch the ice cream. You can’t say don’t touch that, don’t touch that, don’t touch that, don’t touch that, don’t touch that.

The ice cream in and of itself was not sin, but the continual repetition of behavioral modification in one who is not mature causes sin to take place, because it’s actually the seed of sin that’s been planted. And instead, if I’m going to take an ice cream and I’m going to sit it in front of a grown adult who has a conviction about their health and has an issue with lactose, I can tell this friend, this adult, this mature one, don’t eat the ice cream. For when you eat the ice cream it’s going to hurt your stomach and it’s going to cause you to mess up the rest of your day. As a matter of fact, when I get back, I’ve got some dairy-free ice cream for you. Just don’t touch it.

Right now, the person, the one who is mature, is not going to stare at the ice cream and repeat over and over Don’t touch it, don’t touch it, don’t touch it. There doesn’t need to be a wall between them and the ice cream. As a matter of fact, there’s a deeper conviction, there’s a greater desire for cleanliness, right. There’s a greater desire for that which will not turn that person’s stomach. They know that there is something greater coming on the other side. This is the reason that the law causes sin, but the spirit brings life. And so some of the boundaries that we’ve put in place for example, the side hug boundary, or don’t be in the same room together boundary, or I’ll tell you a story in just a minute some of these boundaries for those that are not mature, have not been taught to fall in love with Christ and protect their brother and sister’s calling to protect their brother and sister’s purity, even after marriage.

Yes, some of these things are actually why adulterous relationships have taken place. I’ve got an example. We all know Todd Bentley from Lakeland Revival. He fell into a string of affairs and I’m not downing Todd, I’m using him as example. But before he was found out in a string of affairs there was sin that was already taking place in other areas of his life. Now I’ve heard that since then he has come into a conviction and under a mentorship and his heart has been turned and he desires holiness and purity in his heart, now by the spirit. But before that there were listen it still was the sin of drinking and partying and compromises that led way to adulterous affair after adulterous affair. It wasn’t the side hug, it wasn’t being in the same room, it wasn’t because the girl was pretty and she had an anointing. It was more going on under the scenes, behind the scenes.

Christians, our calling is to holiness, righteousness and justice. This is what we’ve been called to and we’ve been called to run together as men and women. Bill Johnson says it this way the belief that men and women working together is inherently dangerous to each other is a distortion of God’s intention. Unity in Christ is transformative, not threatening. What is threatening for us is the legalistic mentality that actually drives within us more behavioral modification than the love for God and the desire to actually love our brother and sister enough and ourself and our relationship with God and our spouse and our children. We can keep going. The desire to love our neighbor as ourself is not truly been fashioned in us if we have to continually say don’t touch that, don’t do this, don’t go there. It’s not the don’ts but it’s the do’s, because no good thing will he withhold from those who walk uprightly before you. So uprightness, righteousness, walking upright is the key. Desire for holiness and desire for purity is the key.

Listen, some of us, men and women, god’s calling us into a holy alliance. We’re gonna raise the dead together. We’re gonna be in nations alone, sometimes together, and we’re gonna have to love God more than we love the flesh. As a matter of fact, some of us God’s gonna consecrate and he’s gonna set apart, and the enemy is going to try to attack the mind. That’s what he does. But you’ve been trained. You’ve been trained long before now to put to death the deeds of the flesh.

This sifting is just an opportunity to find where the gateway was. Where’s the place that God wants to heal? Where is the where you feel like you’ve been wronged or liked the sin that came upon Adam and Eve in the garden? Was it because they touched the tree of knowledge and good and evil. That wasn’t what happened. God didn’t say don’t touch it. That’s what Satan said. God said don’t eat it. God said don’t consume it, don’t be consumed by it. Listen, he said you have access to all of this, everything in the garden you have access to. And the trick was this. The question was is God gonna withhold a good thing from me? Is there something God’s withholding from me? That window, that opening of doubt and questioning the good thing that God would withhold, is where the doubt, where it’s where the open door to sin came in. And so what we do in this time, as God’s called us to run a holy alliances. If we begin to struggle in our minds, we capture the thought immediately. We submit it to Christ in the blood of the lamb.

Listen, we live lifestyles of intercession, and I love this song. I’ve been listening to you recently Fortify my Faith by Mercy Culture. It says we have a high priest that prays for us. Jesus is constantly an intercession for us and it’s talking about the sifting of Peter. Listen, the sifting is for a purpose and it was preparing Peter to be a dead razor. He was preparing Peter to be one who would lay down his life for Christ and listen. They were gonna all run together Him, Mary, all of them. They were gonna run together.

So the mind that is set on the flesh is death Romans 8, 6 through 10, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind that is set on flesh is hostile to God, for it does not subject itself to the law. It is not even able to do so, for those who are in the flesh cannot please God, but if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him. If Christ is in you, though, the body is dead because of sin, you yet the Spirit is alive, alive because of righteousness. Romans 8, 6 to 10. And so I’ve talked to you a little bit.

I said I was going to talk about the anatomy of an affair. This is so important as we go into these conversations. I did talk to you a little bit, for example, about Todd Bentley. Again, no shade on him in the inner workings of his heart throughout that. But we do want to use this example, because the things that led into the string of affairs was already compromises and sin. There was already God, though God was using him powerfully in the Spirit. With the gifts, there was a compromise with allowing sin into his life and I cannot put this. I cannot stress this more in this hour.

God’s called us to consecration. If you aren’t living a lifestyle of consecration, you’re not going to be able to defeat these strong desires of the flesh. When God calls you into more, he wants more of you personally and not again like don’t take this as arrogance or pride. Personally, I’ve been in this thing for 23 years, since I literally have not had a drink in 23 years and I’m not going to tell you that there’s not been many times that it’s crossed my mind as to why. Because drinking in and of itself is not a sin, right, why can’t I have a drink? The tea totalling in itself is not what has kept me from drinking, it’s not what has kept me holy and pure. It’s been my consecration unto the Lord that I don’t want to have a, I don’t want to take of that cup until I’m with him in eternity. And there’s a consecration between he and I where I have resisted the flesh and even the inner workings of the conversations in my mind that have tried to cause me to compromise that conviction Again.

I’m not telling you if you, if you have a glass of wine, I’m not telling you that that sin. I’m telling you that God is trained to be in consecration and purity and holiness by this one particular thing that he’s told me not to partake of. He doesn’t tell me don’t touch a wine bottle. He’s told me do not consume it because I am inviting you into the lifestyle of holiness. And so when I come into a place where I may be tempted in my mind and initial thought with other sinful things, I can take those thought captive. I know how to make them come into obedience to Christ. I know how to go into intercession. I know how to go to trusted friends, those who I know that I can tell you know what the struggle may be in my heart and my mind and they’re going to pray for me. We’re immediately going to dismantle it. They’re going to be real with me. Where was the open doors? Not this person’s fault or that person’s fault. What is God trying to deal with you on right now? What particular area of your heart and life do you still feel there might be some unforgiveness? Where’s an open door where you feel lack and you don’t actually believe that God will give you supply to you according to his riches and glory. Like what are you trying to get right now? Okay, you need friends like that in your life.

So affairs and ministry can be devastating Absolutely, and this is another part of this. The anatomy of an affair with ministry has lost sight of the devastation that it would cause. It’s not just going to devastate the person that you’re having an affair with and their spouse is going to devastate your family line. It’s going to devastate your children. It’s going to devastate your family outside of your children. It’s going to devastate your children’s children. It’s going to devastate the person that you are tempted to have an affair with in their ministry calling. It’s going to devastate your ministry.

Calling All of these things. If you truly love one another, you’re going to hold each other to an accountability of holiness and purity. If I love you, the same way that I told my husband before we married, if you truly love me, you will not even try to take away my purity, and this is what God is calling us to. I want to protect your purity. I want to say this just to my brothers I want to protect your purity, I want to run with you with power and I want you to protect my purity, I want you to protect my husband, I want you to protect my children, I want you to protect my future, I want you to protect my voice, and the same I will commit to do for you, to protect you and your wife and your children.

And your voice and your annoying thing and your calling this is the upward calling of Christ, and so again, often in a fair ministry, reveals the insufficiency of external, internal and external issues that are going around with the person a lack of a moral compass and a lack of accountability. Hear me when I say this there’s not going to be a crowd of people that you can trust, but you need at least one. And so if an affair happens, it’s because the moral compass got off and it’s because when you conceived of the thought, you dwelled on it and you didn’t confess it to your brother, confess one to another, that you may be healed. So I want you to hear me we’re not going to be immune to thoughts. You’re not all day long. All day long, you don’t turn off your TV, turn off your phone, turn off your radio or put a blinder on your eye, and not drive down the road because you may have a thought. You learn how to take every thought captive unto immediate, to Christ, that the thought tries to form into something more. You go to someone that you’re accountable to, and if you are a spirit-filled believer, a mature believer, you need to have somebody in your life that’s going to take you through deliverance and take you through inner healing on a consistent basis. This is how we’re going to run together at the end of the age. This is how we’re going to break labels, laws and religious controls.

So Luke 7.36-50, the story of Mary anointing Jesus’ feet with her tears and her hair. Jesus not only allows her to do this, but he tells everyone else to leave her alone. This is an act of devotion. It says that she didn’t cease to kiss him. So I’m going to stop right there.

This was a man. Jesus, fully man, fully God, tempted and tried in every area. Allows a woman to come into the room, take down her hair, which was taboo, wait on his feet, kiss him, wash his feet with his tears. A woman who most likely had a string of backstory of adulterous relationships and prostitution we often hear, even avoid the prayers of evil. Jesus wasn’t afraid. He was not afraid of what was taking place here.

As a matter of fact, I truly believe that this could have possibly been one of the areas that Jesus had a temptation or trial in that he defeated, because he defeated the enemy in every single area. Every area you and I could be tested in, jesus was tested in and came out victorious. That’s why he was able to die and be raised again, because Satan found nothing in common with him, and it wasn’t because he made himself walls around him and separated himself from everything sinful. As a matter of fact, he inserted himself into everything sinful and took on the sin of the world so that you and I could be set free from the bondage of sin and death. And so, in this atmosphere, jesus is literally being touched by, kissed by and wept on by a woman who, I am sure, was madly in love with him in a holy, beautiful, holy way. She was. She’s found at the foot of the cross and is death. She’s found at the tomb. There was nothing sexual going on there, but Jesus wanted to prove that her extravagance on him would be an example of the true fullness of the gospel, wherever it was preached, even until the end of the age.

I know some of you are going to throw stones at me, but I’m telling you it says. This is what he says. Therefore, I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven for. She has loved much, but he who is forgiven little loves little. He’s talking about how much she loves. She’s desperate lovesick for him, but the relationship remained Emotional and spiritual, holy, holy alliance. It was a holy alliance there and it did not become defiled and there was no sin found in him.

The same thing with the woman at the well. He wasn’t supposed to be talking to her. The disciples have an issue with that. The same thing when she was at his tomb. He takes her and he sends her to be the first evangelist to tell the man that he has risen. They have a problem with that. He doesn’t care. He does not care.

This is a quote from the other half of the army. We must confront these labels, laws and religious control that we have confined men and women to. It’s time to break free from these limitations and embrace the true power of the gospel. John 4 27 says just then his disciples returned and were surprised to find him talking to a woman. But no one asked what do you want or why were you talking with her? He knew that they were asking the question, but his response to them was basically get back. I’m breaking down walls right now because it’s not good for me and to be alone. I’m going to send her out. Lou Engel said this Jesus himself shattered every religious safeguard when it came to men and women interacting.

The encounters with Mary Magdalene, mary Bethany and the unnamed woman who anointed his feet, which I think that was Mary, showed his radical approach to relationships, setting an example that we should follow. This is profound. I know we’ve gone a little over 30 minutes. I said I was going to go a little bit deeper into Deborah and Barak, but this is profound. Jesus’s example is no greater example, and we have to understand that.

The holy alliances that God is bringing forth in this hour will require us to walk holy. They will require us to be accountable. They will require us, when I say accountable, accountable to the word, accountable to the spirit, accountable to intercession, accountable to one another, having nothing, letting the enemy find nothing in us, and pursuing with everything we have a heart that is open, pure and consecrated. The goal or the aim is not to see how many different boundaries I can come up with. Not that boundaries are bad, but the law brings death. The goal is something greater.

Jesus said if you looked at a woman lustfully, you’ve committed adultery in your heart. This wasn’t to condemn them and bring them into condemnation. It was to bring attention to the heart, where the law has been written upon our heart and by way of the spirit we cast out any sin that may try to enter in. Thank God for the blood of the Lamb. Thank God for the blood of the Lamb. He’s going to call us in this hour to greater consecration, greater purity.

I want to tell you prophetically, there’s a sifting coming and I believe there is a sifting here. That sifting is going to cause us to be able to walk where God’s called us to walk. Do not be afraid when the sifting comes. Do not be afraid when the thoughts come. Take the thoughts captive, bring them to obedience to Christ. Find someone that you know that you can be accountable to.

On the very clear flip side of this, I want you to know that if you’re not walking in maturity and you’ve not taken out the little foxes, the little things in your life up to this point, god’s not going to call you into a holy alliance with someone of the opposite sex. He’s just not going to, and so I want to go ahead and expose that right now. This is something God’s doing with mature believers in this hour. He’s going to cause us to put away our condescending judgments and religious thinking and call us up higher. He’s going to actually call us to run together and be holy and pure in it. He’s going to call us to have friendship and even emotional and spiritual connections with one another, deep spiritual connections with one another and to cast out any fleshly desires.

It’s harder to be a living martyr sometimes, but that’s what we’re called to, because the greater reward is to see my brother completely running in the holiness and purity and the thing that God has called him to. The greater reward is for my brother to be able to lift me up and be able to set me in a place where my voice is loud. The greater reward is to see the family whole and the children and the children’s children walking in the power and authority that’s been given to them through the gospel that they can walk without sin. How do we do it? By being trained. Train yourself in the secret place, train yourself in the daily life, train yourself when no one sees to put aside every weight that hinders and the sin that so easily holds you back, and run the race and do not grow weary and stop fearing, but walk in the spirit.

God’s calling us to a mighty, mighty hour where men and women are going to run together and we’re going to show a generation what it looks like to walk in consecration and purity. We’re going to bring back consecration in this. We’re going to stop pointing fingers at women and calling them Jezebel’s because they’re powerful. We’re going to start lifting them up and saying be a voice and I’m going to protect my heart and protect yours. I’m going to stop pointing our fingers at men and saying you’re just nothing but lust and you can’t be around me because that’s all you’re going to think about. That’s a lie from the pit of hell, because if you’re consecrated brother, if you’re consecrated friend, you’re taking thoughts captive and you’re doing everything in your power to walk in the spirit because you’re in love with the Lamb. That’s what he’s called us to.

So let me pray for you right now, in the name of Jesus. I thank you for those that are watching God. I pray that right now, you deliver people, even now, from lustful thoughts, that you deliver us right now from the religious thinking, from the, where we’ve tried to return back to the law in the same way that Paul was, was rebuking the Galatian church for going back to the law. Lord, even right now I believe you’re rebuking us and you’re saying there’s a greater, there’s a better way. Don’t go back to the circumcision of the flesh, go to the circumcision of the heart. If you stare at it and say you can’t touch it, you’re going to touch it. But if you know the beauty of what is on the other side, the goodness of the Lord that holds nothing back from those that walk up right before him, you will gloriously raise your hands and be able to walk in the power of God, even in the mid temptation. He’s calling us higher. I’m telling you, he’s calling you to purity and I command right now, every impure thought to leave your mind, anything that’s tried to come in and weave itself into your mind. We command that seed to even be cast out right now in Jesus name, where the enemy said you can’t touch it, because God is even withholding from you a good thing and you’re driven by Don’t touch it, don’t touch it, don’t touch it.

I break that voice right now, in the name of Jesus, and I tell you you got freedom. You have freedom. Don’t be consumed. You have freedom to partake of everything that’s life and godliness. There’s no lack. There’s no lack in Jesus name. There’s no lack in him. I love you. We’re living in a great, powerful hour. I’m so thankful for my brothers that are lifting up the voices of women in this hour. I’m so thankful for my sisters that are being set free and not worried about being in competition with men or being in competition with one another. All that’s being broken and we’re running together in holiness, purity and the glory of God with fire. Listen, we’re going to raise the dead together. Guys, we’re going to do this. We’re going to do this at the end of the age and we’re going to do it with consecration in Jesus name.