Transcript

0:00:00 – Wayland Henderson
Because what this makes me think of is Colossians 2, when Paul begins to start to talk about that principalities and powers were disarmed by the cross. So let’s start there, when a church fully starts to not be afraid that I’m going to embrace the cross-shaped life in this area. But I don’t know about that area because I’m afraid of what that would look like. You know, it’s like every fiery woman is not a Jezebel.

0:00:45 – Tammie Southerland
Hi, welcome back to the Burning Messengers. My name is Tammy Sutherland and I want to ask you a question Do you really believe that men and women can run together? Do you believe that there’s hindrances to that, and what does that look like? We’ve been talking about this a good bit, but we believe that God is actually calling us into an hour where we’re able to bring about the fullness, the beauty of who he is as we begin to run together in really the end of the age. We’re at a time where the world is in crisis and we need to see the power of God move and we need to, like, probably get past some of our religious barriers so that we can see what he’s doing in this hour. He’s raising up intercessors, he’s raising up messengers, and today I have one of my good friends with me. You’ve met him before.

Waylon Henderson is coming on and we’re going to have a really real conversation about this. Waylon, welcome back to the Burning Messengers podcast and I’m so thankful that you’re here. We’ve had so many awesome conversations and this is one that’s kind of personal to us and dear to our hearts. So you guys don’t know Waylon. He is an amazing intercessor, he’s a lover of Jesus. He’s a father, he’s a husband, he really is used powerfully in the nations around the world, but his heart really is to just encounter the Lord, to know the Lord and to really teach what he’s saying and what he’s doing. So, waylon, if you want to tell anything else, you can talk a little bit about what you’ve been doing with intercession with the school. Just to jump into this.

0:02:15 – Wayland Henderson
Sure, it’s great to be on here with you again, tammy. Blessings to everyone who is either watching live or will watch recording later. I mean, just as some of the things we’re doing now really a lot of it is thrusted through intercession. I mean, in fact, everything that I do and everything that we’re walking in now has always come from the birth canal, if you will, of intercession, even before I even understood what all that meant. Right, but we’re the Lord is really positioning us now to with a mandate, really to give an understanding to the body of Christ that, yes, I don’t know of anybody else, but growing up it was always the mothers of the church that were the strong intercessors in the back room. Yes, they carry powerful oil and anointing to break through in prayer and many things that many of our generation, much of our generation, walks in now was because of that.

But, at the same time, one of the things that’s on our hearts and the mandate for us, the Gathering Kingdom Center, is to take the prayer room from the back room to the front room, that it comes from the back of the room and on the front room and the front lines of the fault lines of the shaking in our generation and that there’s not really a mantle that you can see anywhere in scripture of intercession, because the whole body of Christ, the bride, is called to embody that. So anything that we do as far as discipleship, apostolic and prophetic foundations, all flow out of that foundational thread and understanding of intercession. So that’s some of the things. Whether it’s around the local region in Arlington, texas and DFW, whether it’s around the nation, whether it’s another nation of the world, god is raising up a heart for people to pray. So sight and times.

0:04:16 – Tammie Southerland
Right, and it all goes back to that. Everything that we talk about, everything that we do, it goes back to that. It starts with that. It’s the cross and the intercession and obviously the cross and intercession.

And we might sound like a broken record when we talk about this, but we’re really not, because if we don’t understand that these are the foundation stones and everything else that we’re saying, everything else that we’re doing, it’s really built on sinking sand, for a lack of a better word. And so even what we’re talking about today can men and women run together? If we don’t have a foundation, an understanding of the cross, an understanding of intercession, then the answer is no, we can’t. Men and women can’t run together, we can’t run at all. Everything falls apart.

And that’s why I really love you and I love what you do, because that’s your heart. Your heart is to teach a generation to pray. Your heart is to teach a generation to look at the cross and what else is there. And so when we talk about that, we can get into so many different things. We can get into thoughtful ministry, we can get into missions, we can get into even what it looks like to be a messenger in this hour. But if you’re not living a lifestyle of intercession, if you’re not living a lifestyle of prayer, you don’t understand the power of the cross. Then you need to go back to square one. That’s the milk, right?

That’s the milk and the meat right All at the same time.

0:05:33 – Wayland Henderson
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

0:05:35 – Tammie Southerland
And let’s say, just diving into the subject, what are your thoughts on that? I’ve been talking about that quite a bit and honestly, it came up to me you and I were at a conference together, I don’t know, a few weeks ago and it started kind of burning in my heart because something interesting happened is like you went into an encounter and I went into an encounter at the same time, and it’s almost like your encounter, my encounter. This has happened before, but it’s almost like you saw a different facet of what I saw, but it was a very similar encounter and I began to ask the Lord the question like what is this? What is God doing right now, prophetically? But also what’s God doing with Waylon and Tammy?

You know, we seem to be in the same vein whenever it comes to some of the revelation that God’s given us, and the Lord actually began to speak to me. It’s actually like looking at two different facets of a stone, of a gemstone. You know where I’m able to capture a certain facet and you’re able to capture a certain facet, even though we may be in the same encounter, in the same revelation, and when we begin to bring those things together, it paints a picture of the character and the nature of God that we otherwise wouldn’t be able to see.

You know, I believe it reaches even further than that, into some power ministry and some building as well. But just talk to me for a second on your end of that, what are you thinking, what are you hearing, and why is this a subject that we need to talk about?

0:06:58 – Wayland Henderson
So good, so good. You know I was thinking about, and we had some conversation around this as well and when you start having these type of encounters, especially in particular between you and I, male and female, and the Lord starting to weave certain dimensions and facets of what he’s doing through both of it at the same time, it reminds me of Genesis, right and when God desired to make man in his own image and in a culture that is male dominated, your immediate response is God desired to make man. But a better translation is God made human.

0:07:56 – Tammie Southerland
Yeah, yeah.

0:07:58 – Wayland Henderson
Which includes male and female.

0:08:01 – Tammie Southerland
Yes.

0:08:02 – Wayland Henderson
So his image bears is is incomplete, actually complete actually, if it’s only male, because his image, to bear his image as humanity in the earth, it needs both male and female. And when I, when I start to think about you, know different dimensions and facets that the Lord speaks through For a wife and I. Example, for example, a lot of times you look at Genesis, because it was, you have this narrative of Genesis one where it’s male and female, the the bearing God’s image, and then when you get into chapter two, it’s still male and female, but then it could easily just slip into a context of Husband and wife marriage ministry, which I think is huge, and it actually begins to help set a framework of holiness and transparency, has Men and women begin to move together in which we can get into, maybe a little later. But for me there are different aspects of Male and female that bear the image of God that if you only have one aspect of it, there’s another facet that you don’t see. And when I started to think About that and you and I beginning to have different encounters and assignments together now, I kind of joked with you and was like we’re, we’re like the Wonder Twins, you know, maybe.

So maybe showing our age now talking about Old-school DC comics, but but it’s like.

There there is an aspect of God, when God makes himself known by the spirit to, to a male and female man, man and woman of God like us. For example, there is something about my male makeup that the Lord is going to speak to me in that way to express an aspect of his, of his nature, and then he’s going to do the same thing. That’s going to speak to you, that’s going to begin to move through your aspect from a female and it’s not meant to be either or when you put both together, it gives a fuller understanding of what God is doing in the earth. That’s not male dominated or female dominated, but it’s those that are walking side by side Bearing the image of Christ. I think, when we can really understand that, not just from a Marriage perspective, although it’s very important, but a male and female perspective Working together to see Christ image, bear image that that image made known in dark places to those who are separated In that aspect of male and female.

0:10:54 – Tammie Southerland
So yeah, it’s interesting you’re talking about this. You know it’s when you talk about when God took Adam and put him to a deep sleep, or Should say man, mankind, because it wasn’t at that point it was mankind, put him into a deep sleep, and it says that he took out of his side Rip. Informed fashion woman.

I’ve actually been doing some study here recently on the original language and I never knew this before.

But the, the, in the original language, in Hebrew, it says that he put him to a deep sleep and he reached within the chamber, within chamber of his side, and pulled out from his in the within the chamber, and essence of Him, which he created into woman, and so it just brings it to a whole another light to me, and you know, in the aspect of marriage, marriage is probably as close as we can get to understanding what union is supposed to look like with the father, son, boy spirit. You know it’s a physical, it’s an emotional and it’s a spiritual connection, but it was never meant to be limited to that as the body, because it says there’s neither male nor female, greek nor Jew upon or free, and so the reality of that is is, if we can actually begin to enter into the Re, the revelation that Jesus was trying to portray in John 17, the unity, the oneness this is what’s hit me recently there’s a oneness that’s available for us in the body of Christ that can in some ways even surpass what the marriage is.

Is there to, to forecast, for a lack of a better word, because in Christ we’re supposed to be one and we’re supposed to be male nor female, bond or Jew, you know, bond or free. Great north, you were supposed to be able to be restored back to the place of the garden where there is a unity, and and then even in the body of Christ, looking like you know, looking at him in holiness and purity there should be a spiritual and a Relational connection where we can truly become one in the spirit, and I think this is a new language for a lot of us like, like, we’ve never thought about it this way before and of course it’s like you said.

We’ve always thought, okay, well, ministry and marriage, right. Ministry together, men and women run, running together in marriage is the ultimate goal, right. But here’s the problem. Sometimes that doesn’t happen that way because, like your spouse and my spouse, you know, has very different callings than us. We want them to come to the forefront, but the reality is, damon’s not called to a microphone, he’s not called to a platform, he’s called to a business, you know.

And yeah, and what he carries and the way that he comes alongside me, in the way that he covers me, is very different. You know, then, what some would expect men, ministry and marriage to look like, and so if I took that as my only Representation of what it looks like to be one in the spirit, then I wouldn’t understand what he truly meant, what the word truly meant by the body running together. And so I think we’re embarking on something completely different than we’ve considered before. But it’s not. But it’s, it’s biblical, it’s an entrance into the realm of the spirit of oneness that we’ve not actually even considered, partially ably, because we’ve had a religious boundary where we didn’t believe or we didn’t trust that we could run together.

0:14:24 – Wayland Henderson
So true, I think what we’re really talking about is even stepping back. All this is included, in my perspective at least, in Reformation. Reformation with what? What is this thing called ministry, and what is it supposed to look like in the first place? Yeah, and and, and, okay, well, okay, yeah, marriage, marriage ministry doesn’t mean that the Husband and the wife both have a microphone Right it’s and start there. Then, okay, what? What does it even mean To move in ministry? You know, what about business? Is that not an aspect of of ministry? What about the home? Is that not an aspect of ministry? What about, you know, in in the culture?

The challenge, I think, also starts from okay, you have three percent of Of the of the of the church, that’s full-time, and you have 97%, including male and female, that go out into the world and and when you are locked in this framework, that is limited of. This is how the ministry looks and this is how it works. We have a challenge. Even understanding how to move has husband and wife, it’s no wonder that we, we get caught up. Well, how do we move in male and female? And I think what you talked about before, if we are meant to be the place that God dwells, has sacred space, that Holiness and sanctification, is about imparting and partaking of his divine nature. That Begins to cleanse our perspective, heal our hearts and begin to drive out anything that would separate us from him, so that how we view each other Comes from how Christ views he views us.

And when I think of ministry and I think this is something that I love to see with us is, no matter what it looks like, you and I running together Includes our spouses, even though they may not move in the same way. It’s not like, hey, you stay here, we’ll go do ministry and you just pray and and cover. No, everyone is invited to the party and everyone has a place. And I think that belonging for me increases and breaks the limitations Off of of those like you and I being able to run together freely because there’s trust, there’s not separation, there’s inclusion, there’s not exclude, we’re not exclusive. This Okay. Well, this is how our ministry moves. My spouse moves this way, so you can’t come, know, everybody Should have a part to play. And when you see how valuable that is, I think a family moving together in a community Moving together breaks those limitations, because it all first starts with what does ministry really look like, if that all makes sense and yes it does.

0:17:37 – Tammie Southerland
That’s exactly where we are, you know it’s we’re trying to. We’re trying to tear down and rebuild right now, things, mindsets and understandings, especially of ministry in the church, that we believe for so long. So that makes total sense because, you’re right, part of the, the hindrance, has been Ministry looks like a microphone, a platform in a church, whereas we, we’re all created to be ministers under him and a boy. Yes, you know, in the whatever realm of influence that we have, and so I like the way you brought that up. That makes a lot more Sense, and being able to put it in those kind of terms breaks down barriers even further.

0:18:14 – Wayland Henderson
Come on, come on. And even when I I mean me, just I we talked about this before that I, yeah, I have a little sister, my sister. Actually, we had the same birthday seven years apart, and so when, when I was seven and my sister was born, it was like I’m I remember having my little Superman chair Didn’t buy sitting by the crib. It’s like, okay, I’m the protector of my baby sister, right? So it is be funny that anytime something happened, she was more afraid to tell big brother than she was my parents.

You know, I never really paid attention to that growing up, but, you know, having having a baby sister, having two daughters and and strong a, a House full of three strong women, right? I started to realize over the years that even just that aspect of of life and family and Having spiritual daughters that it didn’t matter whether they needed a platform or a microphone in their hand my job has a spiritual father Was to begin to raise them up, to begin to see themselves. Has Christ sees them and don’t allow anything in the culture to begin to hinder their fire and.

Yeah, like I like, even with my, my, my natural daughters, who are so my spiritual daughters, all those together, I Would never want to hinder their will I Don’t call them hardheaded their strong will, right, because culture will suppress that in, in, in women a lot, because there are too many men that are afraid of the strong will and the fire that that women carry.

But if that’s an aspect in the nature of the image of God, I hinder myself from receiving that realm of glory if I begin to try to suppress it. And I think that that’s what we’re talking about is first, if you are, if you are confident and secure, has a man of God and who God has made you and you are fully committed to holiness and righteousness, then the hindrance of what could happen in a relationship with a female, because your heart is not pure in the first place, yeah, you should have parameters. That’s not for you, yeah, but then also on the other side, not being hindered or fearful of a strong woman that begins to carry fire, then I think what we try to navigate through can be, can increase and cause a synergy One chases a thousand, two chases ten thousand, but it all comes from being in a place where we are one with the sanctifier, who continually sanctifies us, who cleanses those places that cause hindrances and reasons for parameters and wrong perspectives in the first place.

0:21:39 – Tammie Southerland
You know, you said something recently. You’re talking about the table. You posted something on Facebook and you talked about the table, making us address our inner or Judas and Peter, and even as you’re talking.

I’m thinking about that because that’s truly what we’re having to do, as any pioneers do, as you go through a process of coming into what we call new is really not new. We’re restoring the the ancient or restoring the old. In all of this, I’m very interested to hear from the standpoint of a man, some of these hindrances that we’ve we’ve faced in the past and you know, even for me personally faced plenty of the reactions and responses that you’re talking about, even with you know being called hard headed, you know being being accused of, you know the fire that I have, being manipulative, how, which is intensely painful, just so you guys know it’s very painful when God is placed within the heart of a woman, a passion for him and a revelation of him. To be accused of something being unholy about. That’s extremely painful and it does shut down. It will shut us down very quickly because we do want to be pleasing to him, we do want to be holy and righteous and we do have our ears open to correction, just to just to make that point. That’s why that is hurtful and it is painful when it’s not true, because we do have our ears open to correction.

But in that you know wayland, saying that I think the table of communion for for us, what we’ve experienced, I think what others are experiencing right now, in and of itself does cause us to have to deal with these things when we partake of. You know, what we’ve been talking about is transfiguration, transformation at that table, addressing things. You know, as we take up the bread, the body of Christ, the blood of Christ, we have to come face to face with the flesh. Talk about that a little bit in the aspect of what we’re talking about right now. You know, just on the, on the male standpoint, what are we doing? What are, how are we dealing with some of these things?

0:23:48 – Wayland Henderson
And that’s so good and that takes me into so many different places. But if you look at the table right, especially communion, when Paul, for example, talks about how to eat of the bread and the and the drink of the cup of the Lord in a worthily manner, because if you eat of this bread and drink of this cup unworthily, there’s judgment comes because you don’t discern the Lord’s body. So in Genesis, if the Lord’s image is embodied in male and female, there is a shaking that I believe that we are in. That is beginning to expose all the places we have been dismembered Because it’s at the table. When it says remember it, the table of remembrance, where, when we begin to see where we have separated God’s body not just including because it’s at the table we’re in in society and culture, even in Paul’s day and even in our day, where society separates us, culture separates us, ethnicity separates us, cultural status separates us. That it also includes where male and female are separated. It’s at the table, where culture, dismembered, all of those spaces are meant to be re membered back together as we can mume with the body in the blood of the Lord. So for me, as a male sitting at the table and beginning to commune on the body in the blood of the Lord means I have to come into union with how he sees women, and one thing that I always begin to teach in our community was when we open up the scriptures, we must read for Christ, and they used to be like what do you mean by read for Christ? Essentially, what it means is when I went up to scriptures and I find out where Christ is. Now I’m being read by the scripture that says what I be, where Christ is. For example, you look at so many places. Where would Jesus be? Jesus would be ministering, sitting at the table with the tax collectors and the sinners. Then you begin to look what I be sitting at the same place Jesus was, or what I be the Pharisees beginning to question him. When Jesus comes and he begins to minister to the woman caught in adultery, the I be where Jesus is be ministering to her, saying go and send no more, or what I be, the Pharisees having a stone in my hand. So when I start to look where Jesus is, jesus began to put women in the scripture, at a forefront, not off to the side. You look at the resurrection.

The early church called Mary, mary Magdalene the apostle the apostles, and that would completely destroy our culture. Now, because when you look at the third day, when they get to the tomb, and they get to the tomb and Peter and John are there and they begin to see grave clothes, but Mary is there first and they’re on the outside of the tomb and Peter and John see grave clothes and they and they leave, but Mary stays in the same place. Catch this that they see the grave clothes. Angels appear Right. So where the men seen dead things, mary actually seen angels that are facing each other, much like the cherubim would be on the mercy seat. So that’s why the early church referred her the apostles, or the apostles, because she was the one that told them he has risen. He has risen and you see the relationship that he had, and sometimes we’ll skip right to Lazarus. Lazarus was his boy. Yeah, lazarus was his boy, but also was Martha and Mary. He was always with Martha, mary and Lazarus.

And so when you start to see things like that, it starts to bring that Okay, where have I has a Peter denied your place, that you put women in Scripture?

Or where have I has a Judas begin to betray you, discounting where you’ve put women in Scripture?

Has you do in Scripture? So, in context of the table, we have to begin to look how does Jesus view the world and does our view line up with his view? And when you start to really have a transparent place like that at the table, then you have to begin to commune and allow that. One thing I love about communion right is you consume it. But it also is where the Hebrew word for consume is also the word for consuming fire. Yeah, the same Hebrew word for a fire being consumed is the same Hebrew word for food being consumed. When you’re at the table and you begin to consume the life and the spirit of the Lord of where would he be that begins to consume you, so that fire should begin to convict and judge you righteously. So your eyes begin to see in a way that they’ve not seen before, and I think that’s that’s why you find the table and the mist of a lot of things that we talk about, including the subject we’re talking about today.

0:30:02 – Tammie Southerland
Right, because the restoration of the table, the revelation and I’ve been talking about the tabernacle in the table the revelation of the restoration of both of those things is a. So it’s essential to everything else that we’re where we’re walking and what we’re stepping into, and it’s been one of the most neglected things in the past, you know, I’d say even 50 years, 30, 30 to 50 years. It’s been one of the most neglected things when it comes to the church. And so this brings me to my next question. You talk about the early church and how. The early church, you know, called Mary the apostle of the apostles. How did we get where we are? How did we get here? No-transcript.

0:30:44 – Burning Messengers
Hey Burning Messenger, we want to interrupt today’s episode to remind you of Tammy’s book Permission to Burn. The book is her testimony on paper. She was on fire and never expected her life to demonstrate anything other than the zeal of God’s heart for his people. Tammy was going to change the world and see millions come to know her Jesus with the same passion and desire. Until the lies and obstacles begin.

Permission to Burn will take you on a journey of truth and release the weight of God’s glory and recommission the believer in Christ to live out his or her identity as a holy messenger. Awaken the courage to reclaim the undeniable truth amid a dangerously confused generation. In part, keys to living the holy, consecrated yet exhilarating, spirit-filled life. Call forth a scriptural plumb line of reformation to the modern church and leadership structure. Combine together hearts of seasoned leaders and young believers for a sustainable last day’s Holy Spirit outpouring. Read Permission to Burn. Get back on the mountain God gave you and take your place in setting this world on fire for the love of Jesus. In your generation you can find Permission to Burn, breaking the chains of compromise from a holy generation, on Amazon.

0:32:04 – Wayland Henderson
Yeah, yeah, I mean the. I think the one thing is real really, where we we kind of picked up from the beginning, is what is this thing called ministry? Or, more importantly, what is this thing called the church, the body of Christ, and? And how do we not assimilate to the culture? But how do we incarnate Christ in the culture? And the more we begin to look like a culture that becomes more male than female, then it’s easily to lose that over time on.

What was Christ’s original intent? To make himself known through male and female. And again he gets back into into ministry. Right and okay, does it mean that we need male and female conferences? Yeah, well, of course we do. Right, probably need more than more than we do, but it’s more than that, right, it’s much more than that, it’s okay.

What is your makeup as an image bearer of Christ, male or female, and do you have the space and permission to make him known in that place? And do you have the, the encouragement? Do you have the, the family of, of, of men around you that are encouraging you and giving you permission to let your fire burn? And do they know you enough? And I think this goes back to communion as well, do they know you enough In order to help cultivate that? And I think that’s that’s a huge thing is we have more I’m just going to say it this way we have more ministry that is transactional than relational, because you don’t sit at the table long enough to get to know somebody. Why, okay, that that woman is very fiery and it’s like she seems like she’s angry all the time. Right, well, it’s probably not true, but do you know why she burns the way that she burns? Do you know what the Lord has given her? When you discern the, the vessel that God has formed with his own hands? Because there is an assignment and a in a people group that need exactly what she carries, and you can be a hindrance of that or you can be a celebrator and cultivate that.

So, when I see that, I celebrate what God does in women, intentionally, actually, because I see that there is a hindrance of, you know, not just in the culture, but there is things that are demonically inspired and I believe that the Lord is using women as a sign of his bride beginning to come forth and I, I can, I can, I can go forever, but I’d have to stop here.

I remember when I started seeing visions of, of, of the bride, right, it was the weirdest visionary encounter and if you’re prophetic, you, you, you’ll, you’ll fully get. You know just weird stuff, you see, and I would see like a head, a Christ, you know, the head of Christ on a, on a, on a on a female body, and I was like what in the world is this? I rebuked you, devil, I don’t know what this is. And this kept happening. And then I began to realize that this is a metaphor. This is not, this is not literal. There’s, there’s something of the bride and the bridegroom being brought together, and it was over that course where I began to see a different aspect of God, that that that’s, that’s a feminine dimension. That began to give me a whole different perspective when I watched God move through women, and I think that’s a hard, hard place for men to grasp.

0:36:44 – Tammie Southerland
Oh, I have so many things I want to ask you right now because I want to know why it’s so hard personally, but at the same time, like just from my perspective, to hear you, to hear you say that brings so much healing even to me and I know that it is to many that are watching right now because one of the places for me, as a woman I grew up Methodist, okay, so Methodist have women preachers, right. So I didn’t know, I didn’t know the rules, right. When I got filled with the Holy Spirit and I began to just burn for the Lord, god redeemed everything for me. I was, I was like burning in redemption everything I taught on fire. I’m not, I’m like, I’m not boasting. I was so, so, so immature, like I didn’t know anything, okay, but everything I touched turned to, turned to fire, like just igniting revival on my college campus, the campus that I was raped at. I went back to this college campus, started a group and it lit up. I mean, it was, it was everything I touched burned and it was the redemption on my life.

And it wasn’t until I came ahead to head with with religion that I began to question the validity of who I was. Didn’t understand why, but I began to be shown scriptures that said that what I was doing was basically against the law of God, and so I had to try to figure out within myself why it says that all should go, that we should all go into the world and preach, we should all go into the world and heal and deliver and set the captives free, but why that didn’t apply to me. Why was I not a part of all? And so that was such a just, such a internal wrestle. So I would spend years dialoguing with God and asking him to show me how he felt about me. Help me to understand. You know, show me in scripture where there’s covenant with women. And so if you were to tell me in scripture where you use women, of course he would. He always did. You know, it was amazing the way that he would show me these things that were being told I was being told were not true. But then the Lord would illuminate to me many, many instances in scripture, deborah being one of them, but honestly, the very one of the very few, you know that’s outwardly in front. The Lord began to show me Sarah. The Lord began to show me Mary Magdalene and Mary Bethany, who were beginning to show me hoodlum, or you know, the, the, the very unknown prophets and apostles that were female.

But it was this constant struggle, um, wayland, because I didn’t understand, I couldn’t, within myself, grasp what the Lord was showing me and what man was saying to me. And, of course, if you, you guys, know, like that’s why I wrote the book, permission to burn it came out of that struggle. Struggle, but, wayland, like, help us to understand, you know where, why is it so hard for men to acknowledge the move of God through women? I know there are scriptures that that, um, you know, paul wrote within scripture and we don’t really understand, we didn’t understand them at face value and we had to wrestle those things out. But but talk a little bit about that too. Like, encourage women and encourage men about your journey, and why is that so hard?

0:40:01 – Wayland Henderson
Yeah, there, there’s, uh, you know when I, when I think of, I mean what we’re really talking about is, um, cultures and mindsets that are are demonically inspired and they’re over generations and generations, where what is tolerated in one generation uh becomes resisted fully in the next one. And you start to see, over time, uh, when the, when the culture of the world becomes so patriotic, you know, and um, and and male dominated it, uh, it just hinders. And then when the church, uh and this is a broad stroke, this doesn’t mean everybody, obviously uh, when you don’t realize that there are, you know, places that you become friends with the world and then you become an enemy of the Lord. I think that’s one place that has been hard to break through over time. I believe the time we’re in now is, uh, the Lord is shaking. All of that Um, for me, I think again the, the, the journey that I’ve been on, um being a, the beauty of having a, a son and two daughters, and I think that combination alone you get to see both sides and um, and you see, uh, how women are treated, that are very strong, willed and spirit led, and it really takes the heart of a man to to embrace the cross shaped life, because what this makes me think of is Colossians too, when the, when Paul begins to start to talk about that.

Principalities and powers were disarmed by the cross. So let’s start there, when a church fully starts, to not be afraid that I’m going to embrace the cross shaped life in this area, but I don’t know about that area because I’m afraid of what that would look like. You know, it’s like every fiery woman is not a Jezebel. Okay, yeah, and then you. And again, here’s what happens in my context of my journey when I see a woman that is on fire, in the same time, I know that she’s been wounded by by church, I am confident enough to let her burn while at the same time being an extension of Christ through a male voice that’s not afraid of her fire but also is not afraid of her wounds.

That’s good, right what you said, right Um it’s key Not afraid of her fire but also not afraid of her wounds, because what I find with leaders is Is they’re they’re not just afraid of the fire, they’re afraid of the wounds and and, and they don’t understand how to set parameters right To put them in a healthy space when you are being an extension of a leader of Christ to them, so that the wounds of Christ can heal their wounds and they can build a trust, not just with Christ, but Christ being made known through men.

So good and that, that, every that there are men that are not there to hurt you, they’re not there to manipulate you, they’re not there to suppress you, but there are men that are there to see you heal, see you lift it up and seeing you push down into your purpose. And I found myself, along with my wife, and that’s the beauty of it is, I can Delivrate the, the, the ministry of women, along with my wife. They give both aspects of it, but I can fully begin to be a father, I can be a brother, oh, whatever. That is Because the time frame we’re in with reformation, um, especially when we were in wells, and there was a moment we were in wells and we were, we were at one of the churches I think we’re a pig spa with um, but Evan Roberts, he’d be built the, the iron gates, and the Lord started to talk about the blacksmith that were being forged there.

Yeah, and you know, we’re all sharing what the Lord is saying. And and I remember when the Lord started to talk to me about reformation and he said that there would be A need of the wells, of wells Would open up because intercession needed to match Like into the bible college in wells. But he also began to say at that time that there would be not only wells that opened up, but there would be women whaling.

0:45:52 – Tammie Southerland
Yes.

0:45:53 – Wayland Henderson
And they would become a well, because there is a need of an outpouring that would wash away a refuge of lies, that would begin to Resign what the image of Christ looks like, both male and female, and I think there’s healing waters that the Lord desires to to, to pour, to pour out in those places, um, and there’s. There’s boldness and transparency and purity that pours out for both male and female. So there can be healthy spaces and places when we can move together and there can be healing for the things that have that have come and passed through, you know, male dominated leadership. And there can be places for not only women to move on stages, but women to move In whatever space or calls, without thinking that they’re less than will realize their purpose. I think that’s an aspect of it too.

0:46:55 – Tammie Southerland
So I have to.

0:46:56 – Wayland Henderson
I, there’s my rant.

0:46:58 – Tammie Southerland
I smile when you start talking about the gates and wells because I have a picture of you. I’m gonna have to throw this up on the post edit. Have a picture of you laying by that gate, wrecked in wells.

0:47:09 – Wayland Henderson
Yeah, yeah.

0:47:11 – Tammie Southerland
But, but the beauty, the beauty of that is I don’t know if you know this I’m actually reading a book caught talking. It’s about the women of wells and the, the intercession, and the travail that went forth from these women.

For even up to 40 years before the, the revival Hit, there were women that carried this travail, carried this intercession that actually birthed and there were many voices of women that aren’t necessarily we don’t really know about Whenever it comes to that revival, and so it’s interesting that you are having that, that encounter, that revelation, because there was actually a well there from Travelling women in well. Yeah.

0:47:52 – Wayland Henderson
Wow.

0:47:52 – Tammie Southerland
Yeah.

0:47:53 – Wayland Henderson
I didn’t know that. That’s incredible and it’s beautiful.

0:47:56 – Tammie Southerland
Yeah, the Lord gave me a word. I can’t, I was gonna try to pull it up, but, um, I shared it this past weekend when I was in Virginia. But the Lord gave me a word, I think it was back in 2015. The same way that he birthed forth Um, the, the new covenant, the covenant of Christ, through the womb of a woman, so he would, at the end of the age, bring forth his return Through the womb of a woman, being the womb of travail, with the womb of intercession and even the voice that would trump it, and it is the wailing women. And so this is such an important conversation, it’s important restoration to have right now, and even in all that we’re saying, I think the key factor that we’re Um, we’re finding right now, it is the table, it is the, the relational connection. Uh, because you can’t discern, you know, what someone carries if you’re only looking at, looking at it through the lens of ministry, what we call ministry, if you’re only looking at it through the lens of how, how she sounds or he sounds on a platform. Um, and and honestly, I believe that’s why we have a lot of hurt and woundedness Is because the relational aspect of family within church family, our personal families, connecting with each other and family in general has been really non-existent For for many, many years, and so it’s easy for someone to assume Ill motives and call it discernment, which is a problem that we have in the charismatic media, in the charismatic world. We call our discernment, you know, we think our discernment is the word of the lord, when a lot of times it’s our just our wounds playing on one another’s wounds and we’re not willing to get to know one another, we’re not willing to come together and see, you know, what christ is placed within one another. And we’ve been saying this for years. Just for a lack of time I’m not going to really go into it, but years ago I was very involved in the reconciliation movement.

Whenever you basically, especially in the south, breaking down walls of division between, you know, white and black african-americans and you know, breaking down some of that in intercession and going and doing repentance and things like that in different places where horrible things have happened, and part of all of that reconciliation we would say the bloodline was washed away in the uh, I mean sorry, the um Dividing line was washed away in the blood of jesus. But but that wasn’t even the answer and I kept bringing this, this to the table the answer is not even. It is intercession, yes, but it’s. It is sitting at a table like how can you truly have unity if you’re not going to sit with one another and get to know one another and in one another’s family and in one another’s hearts and their intentions in the day to day? And so we really sure, you know, we kept doing reconciliation service after reconciliation service after reconciliation service, and we’d wash feet and we’d wash feet, but we’d still see racial division, racial, racial pension, and that was because we didn’t know how to sit together.

0:50:51 – Wayland Henderson
Yeah.

0:50:52 – Tammie Southerland
And I believe this is the same thing. I believe this is the next, the next phase in this restoration it is between male and female is when are we going to sit together?

0:51:03 – Wayland Henderson
So good, so good, so good. Yeah, because you, you have to hear each other’s heart.

Yeah in order to understand each other’s perspective. I think the the, the danger and, dare I say, the excuse that we have in in the larger charismatic movement Is we, we exchange, we’re getting to know somebody that with the phrases I know you by the spirit. Yeah, I said it, I said it Well, I know you by the spirit, so I don’t need to sit at the table to get to know you. You may discern some things, but you can’t get a download Of a history of someone’s life. If you’re not willing to sit at the table and get to know them and because we’re On this, I’m gonna run, run, run, but never sit and begin to be and learn with people Then you really don’t know why they are the way that they are. And I think, I think you’re, I think you’re right and I I agree that the culture has to shift In order for us to begin to sit and get to know who people are, especially mel and bima.

0:52:28 – Tammie Southerland
Right, so good, it’s all so good. We could just keep talking about it forever. I just appreciate you so much. I’m so thankful for you and and what you carry and your family and what god’s doing honestly right now. I think it’s a prophetic, just a prophetic picture of what god’s doing. I really do believe that there’s something even more. You know that we’ve not yet really tapped into, but you know even as I said, that with the racial reconciliation, I believe there is a great bridal reconciliation reconciliation happening, um, and and you know it’s like you said, the bride itself, you know, in the table of remembrance, has been dismembered and and there’s a beautiful Remembrance that god is positioning us for.

And it’s and again, like my whole statement earlier, was Can we do this in consecration and holiness? That shouldn’t even honestly be a question. Of course we can, you know, but we have to show a generation, the generation behind us, what it looks like to walk in Holiness of consecration and remember the body, pull the body back together, breakdown barriers, religion and fear Uh, that’s caused us from being able to, you know, emulate christ in the way that he wants to be Portrayed, the way that he wants to shine in the darkness, and you know the dark is getting darker, things are shaking and you know the kingdom’s unshakable.

So if we can believe that, do we really believe that, you know, we can come together and and and move in a power, for a lack of better word, and anointing that we’ve not yet moved in, and it’s not because it’s not been available.

0:54:06 – Wayland Henderson
Right, right, you know I’ve noticed over um, the lord will give signposts right on on what he does and and you have, you have to pick up those subtleties. So for me, in personal ways, even beyond of what I shared before, um, I would, I had this, um, I had this dream and I I we talked about this dream before, so I won’t get into all of it, but the part of the dream was I was in this house and I was holding this baby girl Remember that dream time and but I was holding the baby like she was mine, but she wasn’t. And there was all things about family that was happening in the house and we were getting ready for a meeting and there were, there were, there were kids that were standing on the window sills wanting to look out. So there’s, there’s something that was coming that the, the younger generation wanted to see. And I remember, I remember Lou Engel was was in the house and the first dream I ever had about Lou Engel and and you know he’s he’s rocking and we love you and he’s rocking and he’s giving this expression that he’s about to announce a movement. And you know I had conversations with this about our friends willing to have them for because they were in the dream.

I won’t get into all that, but one thing when I was talking to Will on the phone, I was sharing the dream with them and then to have them was listening and she had said she talked about the, the gathering that they were, they were having on the women’s movement, and the Wingo was coming in and and felt like there was something significant about the women’s movement and holding that baby, protecting what the Lord was going to do with women. And that part really really identified and I think that’s really a narrative of all we talked about before is there is something the Lord is birthing through women, not not to discount men, but to bring a fuller expression of what God is doing in the earth. And and you start to see that and I would find that I would go to different places being different nations and and and doing ministry and I would be drawn to to, to young girls that were the same age as my daughters and it was like there was something the Lord wanted to birth through them, through me as a father, you know, and I would always begin to grab where their family is and and set those parameters so they wouldn’t begin to think anything and you know so it was this station identification, you know, always moving wisdom and pure and purity, right and but we were. We were in Nicaragua a couple months ago and and there were these two young ladies that I begin to give one of the strongest, longest words about a Deborah anointing on them, that at first I was like Lord, why are, why am I giving such a strong word about a Deborah anointing on these two young, these two young ladies?

You know I said who, your who’s, your family or around you, and started to realize that Deborah and and Barack, barack, however, you know, you know you want to pronounce it tomato, tomato, but they, when they begin to come forth and Deborah has a judge, began to sit under the palm tree, palm trees, victory overcoming, and begin to judge at a time when there were, there was corruption.

You know, it’s like every time a judge come, they is were coming, deliverance, and then judge, believe and they go back into their ways that were evil and they go on the side of the Lord.

Well, there was a culture of evil that the Lord began to raise up Deborah and then here comes Deborah and Barack and begins to receive. God raised up Deborah at a time that he wanted to bring what was out of alignment back into alignment, and I, when I started to think about Lord. Why is there such a strong anointing to begin to release this to a younger generation? Because they need to have a different narrative than our generation. They need to have a different narrative and there needs to be a pulling out and a growing up of those hidden Debra’s that are, that are that are developing in secret places and dark spaces to be celebrated and begin to push forward. And Deborah and Barack, when you see the celebration, the song of Deborah and Barack has jail begins to take the tent peg. You know the to the head of their enemy and it says the princes of Isacar begin to follow Deborah.

0:59:41 – Tammie Southerland
Wow, yeah, yeah.

0:59:43 – Wayland Henderson
So there is. There is an Isacar anointing that I believe is upon women right now that are serving has assigned the times and what. The Lord. There is a transition that’s happening. There is a fuller expression of God’s glory and he is marking them, has a signpost of what he’s about to do.

1:00:05 – Tammie Southerland
And I want to say this, to respond, and I want to have you, I want to have you pray her a prophesy, however, you are led in. The beautiful thing I love and we’ve talked about this before about Deborah and Barack was that there was no competition there, even though you know I’ve heard it preached that it was a second. It was in girls. Ladies, I want you to hear me say this she was not God’s second choice.

Come on God’s second choice and it’s been preached to us, has been told to us that that she was God’s second choice and that there was a. It was a curse that the credit went to a woman when it came to Deborah and Barack. That is just not true. It is a lie. And it was actually God. Use Barack to elevate her voice and to identify her ability to hear from God. And in those days they consulted the judges, they consulted God and whether or not they would have victory in a battle. And so he was a humble man who was consulting the Lord and wanted victory in the battle in the same way that you know. You know, moses was like I’m not going to go unless you go. It’s the same thing like he was like I’m not going into battle unless you go with me, and he was saying unless the Lord goes with me, I’m not going and I don’t care who gets the credit.

And it’s so important for us to redeem that storyline because it was the. It’s the Barak that we need, it’s the Mordecai that we need. You know, it’s Jesus that we need that says no, you’re not a second thought, you’re not. You are born for such a time as this and it’s so important in this hour that we have men like you, wayland and Lou Engel and Will Ford and the others that are coming forward and say you know, we need the voice of the women in this hour and you’re not a second thought. You know that’s even been preached and I’ve heard I think it was Catherine Coleman that said you know, god chose so many other men and then he finally, you know, kind of fell on me because nobody else with the answer.

I love Catherine Coleman, but that’s just not true. That’s not how, that’s not our father, that’s not how he operates. And in this, this stories in the Bible, that that proved to us the truth. And this is the power of men and women running together, because we do need the strong voice of our husbands and our brothers to come alongside of us. My dad used to tell me this, you know, he used to tell me all the time you can do anything you put your mind to. I love, love how my dad always encouraged me. He really told me there was nothing that I could not do and that’s why it was so blind. I was so blindsided by religion because I’m like well, my dad said I could do whatever I wanted to.

1:02:39 – Wayland Henderson
You know that’s a great dad. That’s a great dad.

1:02:42 – Tammie Southerland
I didn’t have a grid for it. You know, I grew up with, you know strong brothers also and cousins, wayland, you know, and they didn’t they, they, they gave me a run for my money because they were guys, but they told me how to be strong. But but I grew up with that kind of encouragement and it’s so important to acknowledge that the significance of who you are in this and in men are in this, and so I know you’re going to run, but I want to get you to just go ahead and pray and just release whatever the Lord is speaking to you and thank you so much for you know everything and who you are in in all of this way. Look.

1:03:22 – Wayland Henderson
Amen. You know it’s an honor to be on here and with you and all that you represent, not just as a woman of God, but one who carries the fire of God and and just I’m thankful to run with you and all the Lord is doing with all of our crew and our families, and look forward to all the things the Lord is preparing for the future. And I want to speak to those women who think they’re off to the side or think that God has left them to the side, or that you missed the time in the season. I believe in the time that we are in. You are right, on time. You were with purpose and on purpose. God has appointed you not only for your generation, but to begin to break the barrier for those that come after you, that what the Lord will begin to do through you, that your ceiling will be the floor of the next generation, we believe, to begin to break cultural limitations within the body of Christ, so that the full expression of who God is will be made manifest through male and female. And, lord, I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I’m gonna prophesy and I want to speak to the God that is hidden many times in our culture, in women, that they would begin to shine bright.

The beauty of the nature of women is they are the glory of the man, which means that when you look at Adam and and, and it says that God pulled one man out of his side, so women become the greatest expression of the womb of the man. And the man is Christ Jesus, who is last Adam. So just as Adam was laid to a deep sleep and woman, the womb of the man, was pulled out of his side, jesus on the cross went into a deep sleep when he said that this finished and out of his side came the bride. And I believe that when you look at, when you, when you look at Eve, when it says the evening to help me says that he was, she would declare and prophesy and bring forth the hidden glory and Adam. And I believe there’s a, there’s a glory that can only be made known, in a certain dimension, by God beginning to move through women, and there’s a dimension of glory that can only be known by God moving through men. When you put male, the glory of God moving through male and the glory of God moving through female, then you have the fuller expression of what it means to bear the image of God.

I call forth that hidden glory and women right now to come forth at your time and hour to shine. As darkness increases, may the light and the knowledge of the glory begin to shine forth so that God would be made known. Let Debra’s come forth in Jesus name. Let Esther’s come forth at your time, at your season, at your hour. Let the whaling women begin to open up the wells of revival and awakening so that a world can see the full expression of who God is and Lord I rep. I also want to begin to say I repent, on behalf of male leaders, to many of you that have been hindered, that have been suppressed, that have have not been a in a space where you were able to burn and not been in the space where you’re able to heal. May the Lord begin to heal in such a way that his wounds would heal your wounds, so that you begin to move in a great expression of the victory that God has in his hour for you, in Jesus name hear me, yeah, yeah yeah yeah, thank you.

1:07:49 – Tammie Southerland
I just again, so thankful for you. This whole conversation was powerful. You guys thank you so much for joining us. Well, and I know you got to jump off. You got another thing to do. I’m just going to close it out, but, guys, I just thank you so much for joining us again being a part of this podcast. We just want you to know that you don’t have to burn along. We’re bringing brand new content to you in the season. We’re going to be talking more about intercession, more about the power of intercession and how that connects with the fivefold ministry and the prophetic gifts and all the things. We’re going to continue to move in the prophetic in this podcast, but we really wanted to bring that kind of teaching into you again. These I hope these sessions are blessing you, talking about men and women running together. They’re essential in this hour. So again, thank you so much for joining us and remember you don’t have to burn alone.